Organ Harvesting – updated

There was a good turnout at the forum at Brisbane’s City Hall tonight on the report into allegiations of organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners in China – probably about 100 people.

Allegations of a calculated practice of killing political prisoners on demand to use their organs for transplants are so confronting and enormous that they seem almost impossible to believe. For exactly the same reason, the allegations cannot just be dismissed without a full and independent investigation.To make such a heinous charge without categorical proof seems unreasonable, but the report produced by David Kilgour and David Matas provides many various pieces of evidence which strongly point to the possibility of such a practice (you can read the report online by clicking on this link).

When you combine what is in this report with established facts of major human rights abuses of the Chinese regime, including the world’s largest number of executions and the known practice of taking organs from executed prisoners, and the well established fact of serious and sytematic persecution of Falun Gong practitioners, then the allegations can’t just be dismissed as improbable because of they are extreme.

UPDATE: (29/9) This report by the BBC on organ sales in China makes interesting reading. It doesn’t mention Falun Gong, but given they are among those at risk of execution, it doesn’t really need to.

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143 Comments

  1. Citation was provided, and the quote was exact. Where’s the distortion? Where’s your Truth Makina?

    Shame on you for not rejecting your master’s racist remarks.

    Herere more of Master Li’s teaching on racial purity, from the same Sydney lecture. Master Li claims interracial children are products of chaos and dharma-ending degeneration:

    “if one is not from his race or does not belong to his people, [Jesus/Buddah] will not take care of him. This is the truth, and it is not that I’m making up something here. What I am telling everyone are heavenly secrets. All interracial children were born in the Dharma-ending period. People are not to be blamed for it, because everyone is drifting in the tide, and nobody knows the truth.”

  2. Hi Andrew, This piece by Kevin Steel about Bobby Fletcher appeared in the paper yesterday. Please have a look.
    http://ca2g.eeryu.com/Chinas-sympathizers-launch-a-high-tech-disinformation-campaign/

    “The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had sent e-mails to politicians–and their staff–prior to the meetings. “The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government. I can’t imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people,” Matas says.”

    Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China’s sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign

    Western Standard, Pg. 24: April 9, 2007 – He posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and sends e-mails to anyone–anyone who might take seriously shocking evidence that the Chinese government “harvests” and sells live organs from political prisoners. His main message is that the Falun Gong–the group which first brought evidence of live organ harvesting to light–and the Epoch Times newspaper that broke that story are spreading propaganda against China’s Communist government. And he’s not even Chinese. He is Charles Liu, a 40-year-old Taiwanese-born technology consultant who lives in Issaquah, Wash., and does business in China.

    Liu has been so active and so pro-Beijing in his writings that some Falun Gong supporters–in particular Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer?have accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government, waging a disinformation campaign against them, trying to confuse people, and deliberately wasting everyone’s time….

  3. I’m a patriotic Chinese and I am sick of China-haters smearing my country with lies. Kilgour and Matas are two opportunity seeking politicians hired by the Falun Gong cult. This cult is known for its stunts to take revenge against its ban in China, from an attempt to “sue” Jiang Zemin (which got thrown out), to a campaign to “resign” from the Chinese Communist Party with grossly inflated numbers and no means of identification, together with a laughable bad “Nine Commentaries”, reads like an essay by a clueless 12-year-old. This “organ harvesting” business is by a desperate attempt by Epoch Times to attack China, knowing that nobody ever takes them seriously.

    To whoever compared modern China to Nazi Germany; have you even set foot in China? China’s freedoms and human rights has drastically improved from the days of Mao, and living standards has gone up thanks to the rising economy. Nobody in China cares about the mad cult even before the ban, and in Chinatown Sydney their anti-China stand is virtually ignored by locals there. Falun Gong only got it’s support from the West due to their traditional anti-communism and Sinophobia. If FLG was from some US supported Islamic country such as Saudi Arabia and got banned, I’d doubt much people would care.

  4. Here’s another way of looking at it.

    Black African people are selling their organs merely to survive – such is the desperation of their living conditions and poverty.

    Last year, I saw people showing the scars from their operations on “Sixty Minutes”.

    Opportunists step in to take advantage of oppressed and starving populations.

  5. If this is really going on it is just another of those things on planet Earth that suck completely. Having been to China, I can imagine that it might play like this. Just.

    However horrible things can happen when political activism mixes religion. Many of the Falun Gong practitioners are activists. I don’t think their religion convicts them to go against the state in a public way, but they do, on the street (I was approached while I was there, which surprised me because I knew what danger that lady just have been in).

    There are other ‘banned’ spiritual groups in China that practice their faith quietly. Instead of acting against the state, they accept the reality and just go about charity and relief work to the best of their ability. They realize that the state fears the power of any one group. They also realize that both the State and Chinese culture applaud conscientious citizenship and philanthropy. So they seek to change things “from the inside”, rather than separating themselves from the rest of China and attacking through activism.

    Maybe both are valid paths to change, maybe not, I know which one works better. The practices China is accused of regarding Falun Gong practitioners are horrible – but is a corrupt place, where dog-eat-dog is INSTITUTION. I could forgive all those involved, and it’s very possible that it’s not state policy anyway, but a deal between certain individuals with power. Maybe one day the house of cards will come down.

    Falun Gong aren’t helping themselves or China, though, I feel.

  6. Paul ,

    The Ccp is smearing itself and all those in China who support them. Please do not make the mistake of tarring all Chinese people with supporting the Ccp because it is very clear that majority of Chinese living in China do not.

    If the Ccp chooses to persecute torture and murder while committing the gravest of inhumanities by stealing peoples vital Organs from their bodies so as 1. to get rid of them and 2. to make money for the failing Military who are heavily involved in the organ theft of FAlun Gong practitioners and other prisoners of conscience then please do not support them in this tragedy as by doing so you will be punished as they will be when this persecution is stopped.
    And finally Paul if you are so fond and patriotic of China why did you leave your beloved land? Why not go back?

    Alistair .. Falun Gong practitioners have had to become activists in order to alert the worlds people human rights groups politician’s media etc to the Genocide of innocent practitioners in China. No one can get unfettered access into China to find expose or verify these things out. Not even the UN Red Cross or Amnesty. The communist regime wont allow it.

    When this persecution stops and it will Falun Gong practitioners will go back practising in the parks and studying the universal law and cultivating which is what Falun Gong is all about. We did not become activists before the persecution . This is a crime against humanity and we cannot sit silently while this goes on. It must stop now and certainly before the Olympic Games otherwise the reputation of the Olympics and their sponsors will fall.

    WE do not sit quietly and give into evil. We use the most peaceful and lawful way to expose and clarify the facts to the world. This is lawful, just and righteous. We are helping Falun Gong, China and the worlds conscience. Falun Gong practitioners care deeply about all humanities conscience including the jailers torturers murderers too.

  7. In today’s world, it is a very common practice for people to bury their heads in the sand and mind their own business.

    The best way for evil to thrive is for (enough) good men and women to do nothing. This concept not only comes from the Christian bible, but makes a whole lot of sense.

  8. Exactly, Coral, except people waste a lot of time fighting for ideology in the name of “good” as they are too wound up in ideas to see the differences.

    You or others might look at this issue, or others, and thing about what good might come of dissolving the Chinese CCP. But the CCP is a very strong balance in the world, when most countries are in the sway of US (perceived) power.

    This world seems to have no room for perfect political entities at the moment. I pray that some day soon it will.

    As for picking fights to fight, there is “evil” next door, and of course, in our own selves. But no, we’d rather pretend that we’re perfect and go depose some government.

    People ought to consider the economic and social pressures that ordinary Chinese are under as well. The CCP has done much to bring China along with the rest of the world as well as lift it’s people out of poverty. Without these steps, would China be like Angola/Sudan?

  9. Alistair you have shown your true colours a communist or at the very least an ill informed supporter …..No matter what communism is evil as it tries to take away the most essential and fundamental right to believe in a higher force that it.

    Democracy does not hold a gun to anyone’s head morning, noon and night.

    As to the Ccp lifting people out of poverty get real. Only about 400 million people have benefited from the economic boom in China the rest of the 800 million languish in poverty meanwhile the gap between rich and poor is huge.

    Have a look at this article for facts and figures.

    http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/columns/executive_tech/article.php/3718681

  10. Alistair:

    There is no such thing as “a perfect political entity”. This is planet Earth, not nirvana/paradise/heaven.

    As you quite rightly point out, there is “evil” next door and in our own selves. That is exactly why communism does not work to benefit ANY society.

    Communism doesn’t tolerate any kind of alternative belief system. It is a completely intolerant politico-social religion in itself.

    Communism is about repression, poverty and a total lack of human rights for the general population.

    I don’t consider that paying factory workers 25 to 50 cents an hour – while forcing them to live and work on the premises – making toys that could harm the world’s children – to be anything close to perfection.

    We’re not pretending we’re perfect. It’s more about recognising a social system which is very much worse than our own.

  11. Thanks Coral glad to hear your righteous and very clear thoughts.

    Alistair, its okay we all make mistakes when we are not informed well enough. The true benchmark of a good human being though is for him to be able to recognise right from wrong. Isnt this what will save humanities conscience?

  12. ‘Communism doesn’t tolerate any kind of alternative belief system.’

    … so you’re open to veganism then Coral?

  13. I’m totally with you on all of that, Coral and Jana. I’ve been to China and I’ve felt the stress in the air.

    I know China is still an impoverished country. I saw many workers come from the country to the city to live in on-site tents while they dug ditches and built roads.

    But still, without a system of complete control like the CCP – and I’m no communist (I might be a social democrat if I believed in “being” anything – which I don’t), I believe warlords would rule China.

    I’m as touched by Wild Swans as the rest of ’em.

    I don’t like to look at the pics of harvested corpses just like the rest of you!

    I am from one of the spiritual groups that China represses.

    Communism is very wrong, ultimately, because it stifles individual freedom to learn, grow and express as one chooses, which will ultimately stagnate society.

    In the same way liberalism might be very right because in theory it allows this freedom. In practice though, we have not been as yet “enlightened” enough to use this freedom responsibly.

    That anyone harvests organs is disgustingly wrong.

    Without China Iran might have already been struck and we would be in WW3! Sometimes there’s good in bad and bad in good so I’m just warning against confusing issues.

  14. Still waiting on a mature informative comment, Donna.

    But yes, I am pro-choices that don’t take my own or anyone else’s away.

  15. HI Alistair now you are talking..well done!!

    Although there are a still a couple of faulty notions that i would like to give you some info to at least think about.

    War lords or the CCP? hmnn the Ccp is still worst choice.

    How about democracy and a return to faith , religion, and Falun Gong to make more Chinese into good people. Without faith there is no morality and thats why China has so much corruption and no morality left today. I have read some pretty hair raising reports, travel docs etc about how much morality has changed in the last 10 years or so. With the conclusion being that women are only good for on thing and it would be very hard to find innocent Chinese girls these days anywhere in China.

    Second point you said”Without China Iran might have already been struck and we would be in WW3!”

    Who do you think has been supplying arms and technology to Iran, Iraq , North Korea, Taliban Afghanistan, Regimes in Sudan and Darfur and Burma, Pakistan etc…?

    Yes the Chinese communist regime has been selling nuclear technology and supplying weapons to all of these dangerous countries.

    Not much we can do about it now though.

    I am always stunned when people expect communist China to intervene and put pressure on regimes to stop the Genocide in their countries, when the Chinese communist regime has its own inhuman genocide with the Falun Gong and other inside China.

    You also talk about a complete system of control in China is the only way? Last year there were 98,000 uprisings in China these are the official Ccp figures so you can imagine there would be many more than that. Even with all the the Ccp propaganda suppression torture jail slave labour executions destruction of culture Internet blocking information they still cannot control the people. People only need controlling in the above way when they have no freedom of belief thought and information.

    The Chinese people and the world need a Democratic Government.

  16. Yes, we need democratic governments without too much liberalism, which is just as dangerous.

    But I fear we are rapidly moving towards global rule by (closet) communists.

    It is certainly true that Australia was a better place when more people went to church – but human nature will never be “enlightened” enough to completely curtail evil practices by any government in any country.

  17. HI Coral,

    Agreed anything too extreme is dangerous. Yes these closet communists are a very real threat and problem. But it is not a coincidence that a righteous spiritual way -Falun Going has come to the planet at this time and is of course being persecuted by evil right?

    I spoke to an author the other day at one of our events whose writing a book about the fall of Rome and the persecution of the Christians and how it relates to today.

    I suggested to him that history always repeats itself in order for humanity to improve or deteriorate right? I said to him we are at the exact same point again in history except this time is with Falun Gong and China, Although Rome was the centre of the world and Christians were only in and around that area. This time the world has become Global and Falun Gong practitioners are Global in 70 countries around the world. The stage is the same, the play is same,the lesson is the same. The outcome will also be the same .

    The Romans could not crush Christ’s followers and neither can the Chinese communist regime crush FAlun Gong. This is the only group the communist regime have not been able to defeat in their 60 year brutal history. The universal principles of Truth, Compassion and Forbearance cannot be defeated.

    So Coral please have faith and add to raising the consciousness of humanity to end this lawless period.

  18. Jana:

    As a previous voluntary counsellor with a Cult Awareness Network, I would just like to offer you this small piece of advice in a friendly fashion.

    Never become so involved in any belief system that you believe it to be “perfect” or the answer to everything.

    I don’t know very much about Falun Gong, other than seeing adherents all wearing exactly the same outfit, and demonstrating against human atrocities in the centre of Brisbane City.

    We are all individuals. We should wear whatever we like, have our own beliefs and not be controlled by any group or its leaders.

  19. HI Coral please do not believe what the Ccp says about Falun Gong. They knew perfectly well that the word “cult” would scare westerners as well as the Chinese.

    Falun Gong are free to come and go as we please. There are some standard rules that fit with each cult and Falun Gong does not do nay of these things

    1.you have to shun society and move away from your family.

    2. You must hand over an amount if not all of your earnings.

    3. A person is put in charge of you to “look after you”

    Falun Gong do not even have to go to monasteries to meditate or practice as all other religions do. We are to practice in main stream society so all of humanity can benefit from Truth compassion and Forbearance and this also makes it harder for us but more rewarding as we genuinely learn to withstand the pressures and temptations of everyday life and society and still remains true to our faith by choice not by enforced isolation.

    There are no fees to learn to FAlun Gong and all the exercises and books can be down loaded for free from the Internet. We will not accept donations from anyone at all to learn Falun Gong .

    There is no hierarchy in Falun Gong , no leaders groups or individuals etc..WE have one teacher and one main book to study.

    We are free to practice or not. An overall analysis of westerners who practice Falun Gong are university educated, professionals, with family and children who are mainstream etc.

    http://www.fas.umontreal.ca/HST/U/ownby/

    Here is a site for you to go to from Professor Ownby who is not a Falun Gong practitioner but was commissioned by the Canadian Govt to research FAlun Gong some years ago, Here are his findings.

    I know that you cult busters do valuable work for society when these evil cults do come and expect their needy followers to do the 3 things i pointed out above.There are many evil paths in society today that only seek to harm people while they amass wealth or power but Falun Gong is not one of them!

  20. Jana:

    I was not calling Falun Gong a destructive cult. I know too little about it.

    However, the 3 things you pointed out are not the only hallmarks of a manipulative or destructive group. They don’t all work in those particular ways.

    I can think of some destructive Eastern religions which also practise in mainstream society.

    Your “one teacher” must be your leader. Without a leader, no one follows.

    Of the small number of people I’ve counselled out of destructive groups, nearly all were high IQ university students and graduates in the 18 to 25 age group.

    One had received a Westpac Young Achiever’s Award and an award from Beyond 2000.

    Destructive cults pursue these people not only for the financial bounty yet to be reaped, but because they are more open-minded and idealistic, and make good leaders. Some also come from difficult backgrounds, or are living away from home to study (an easy hit with no parents around).

    It’s one thing to be idealistic, but it needs to be tempered with realism and a dash of scepticism for the greater good of the individual.

    A perfect world (or group) will never exist this side of nirvana.

  21. Coral you are the expert on cults so please take the time if you can acess Falun Gong of which you will find is not a cult in any way.

    As our Teacher has stated ” I take you up to the door and the rest is up to you to do.”

    And i have found this to be true. I hope you have the chance to read the above link I gave to you.

    I agree about the no perfect world. This is earth after all and not heaven or nirvana.

  22. I don’t claim to be an expert on cults, but I do know a little more than some.

    A cult is just a group of people sharing the same beliefs, but a destructive cult is something quite different.

    I drew a blank with your link – nothing there.

    You said Falun Gong has practitioners in 70 countries across the globe, but no leaders, groups or individuals.

    If an organisation has none of those things, it cannot exist.

    What I saw in Brisbane City some years ago was a very large, highly organised group of Chinese people, all wearing identical robes, and working together towards a common goal i.e. giving out leaflets describing the atrocities committed by the Chinese government and asking for assistance.

    I cannot remember what else the leaflets contained, so horrible was the main message.

    What does Falun Gong mean? Do you have an English translation? Is it your Teacher’s name?

  23. Sorry Coral try this link

    http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~tnchina/commentary
    /ownby1000.html

    Falun mean Law Wheel and Gong is cultivation energy.

    Falun Gong practitoners do not wear robes. We wear everyday clothes and when we do our excersises we can wear a t shirt with Falun Gong on it or everyday clothes. When we do exhibitions or hand our pamphlets we often wear T shirts as it identifys us. Other wise the only other costumes we wear are when we do Dances or play in our Bands . So Im not sure what you saw but we dont and never have worn robes and nor do we have to wear anything unless we are in the band as most bands do or a dancing with costumes.

    As for no organisation having leaders.. our belief in what we do compels us to help humnanity understand that this persecution is wrong, No one forces us to do anything but our conscience compels us to as any good person would also do.This is why Falun Gong is so sucessful and organisied.

    Of course we need to organise practical things bit no one is voted in or nominated etc.We just step forward and organsie things as we need to. Cooperation and righteous thoughts for what we are doing helps us do the things we need to do to clarify the facts to all Govt Human rights groups etc..

    Our Teachers name is Mr Li Hongzhi.

  24. I’m wondering now why the people in robes were giving out leaflets discussing the persecution and organ removal of Falun Gong practitioners.

    Who else do you think they could be?

    I remember seeing them very shortly after 9/11 – lots of them – in the heart of Brisbane – Queen Street Mall and surrounding streets.

  25. Take a look at at this site or any other Falun Gong site and you will not see Falun Gong wearing Robes.

    http://www.faluninfo.net/

    There is photo gallery on the right side click on that. We do have Gold suits with red trim that are used for our perfomances – dance singing and drumming. Is that what you have seen?

  26. Coral and Paul, Falun Gong’s organ harvesting allegation has been discredited.

    Most recently by the Ottawa Citizen:

    http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=2c15d2f0-f0ab-4da9-991a-23e4094de949&p=3

    Here are US government and Chinese dissident undercover investigations disproving it:

    1) http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

    http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7, two visits first in secret)

    2) http://www.cicus.org/info_eng/artshow.asp?ID=6491

    http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm

    And are you aware of the fact Jana Shearer is a Falun Gong spokesperson and Epoch Times reporter?

    http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com/2007/04/epoch-times-reporters-gone-wild.html

  27. I don’t remember what colour the robes were – could have been blue. They looked Chinese. Do you know who they are?

  28. Ha Ha Charles alias Bobby Fletcher is back!!

    Well actually Charles you have been discredited most recently by those you discredit and of course The Canadian Standard article.

    It has been brought once again to our attention that Charles Liu has been sending letters to many who spoke out on the organ pillaging issue to discredit Falun Gong and the independent organ harvesting report by Kilgour-Matas. He sends his letters to many media which have made reports on the issue or mention the Kilgour/Matas report. His letter is virtually the same always.

    He wrote to Matas and Kilgour respectively before and after they published their investigation report: “Bloody Harvest”, which is available in numerous languages at http://www.organharvestinvestigation.net.

    He has been posting his views on numerous internet blogs/bbs that mention the organ harvesting.

    An article in the Western Standard magazine provided information about Liu’s real intentions:
    Western Standard: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China’s sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign

    http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/index.cfm?page=article&article_id=2436
    http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/article.php?id=2436

    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/media/WesternStandard_040907.htm

    Below are points responding to Liu’s allegations:

    1. Charles Liu claimed: “– US State Department’s undercover investigation found Falun Gong’s Sujiatun/Auschwitz allegation not credible. [1]”

    Our response:
    1.1 There is no ‘undercover investigation’ as we know of. The US state Department sent the US consular officers attend the show tour of the Sujiatun hospital escorted by the hospital authorities, weeks after the witness testimony about the organ harvesting was made public.

  29. continuation of resposne to Charles Lui

    2.2 On the contrary, a US Congressional hearing, Falun Gong: Organ Harvesting and China’s Ongoing War on Human Rights , was held on September 27 2006 at the Subcommittee on the Oversight and Investigation of the Committee on International Relations. Please find the whole hearing transcript at: http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/archives/oihear.htm or
    http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/archives/109/30146.pdf
    Hon. David Kilgour and David Matas have presented to various Congress/Parliament hearings in different countries, including European Parliament.
    2.3 Following the Kilgour/Matas investigation report, the only studies or investigations which have looked at the matter are those of Dr. Kirk Allison of the University of Minnesota and Dr. Tom Treasure, a UK transplant surgeon, writing in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. Both have come to the same conclusion as Kilgour and Matas, ie, that this practice is happening.
    Please note Kirk Allision’s testimony at a US Congressional hearing:
    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/events/allison-092906-to-us-congress.pdf
    Tom Treasure:
    https://www.dafoh.org/Article_by_Dr.php
    2.4 Worth mentioning is a Belgian Senator Patrik Vankrunkelsven, who made phone call to two hospitals in China last fall in an effort to investigate organ harvesting.
    He called hospitals in Beijing in mid-November and presented himself as a patient in need of a kidney transplant. He says he was invited to come for the operation and was told that the waiting time would be only a few weeks.
    The hospital staff told the senator that the price of a kidney would be 50,000 Euros and one of the hospitals also offered to register him under a Chinese name and address.

  30. I find it very hard to believe that no Falun Gong practitioners have had their organs removed.

    But I am also a bit suspicious of anyone who states that a worldwide organisation has no leaders, groups or individuals.

    According to my education and experience, that’s a deceitful recruiting practice.

  31. When Jesus or Buddha were around were there any leaders organising things? The Teachers did it all at that time right thru the teachings? It was only after when the Teachers were no longer around that administration ,control and remuneration became the normal in religions . Which put all the emphasis on it being a job not a pure righteous cultivation way to return to your origin.

    We definitely have practice sites were someone has the responsibility of being there every Sat or Sun. But this is not a request from a higher authority in Falun Gong meditation practice. When we have the heart to pass this onto more people we start up a practice site. Not everyone one does it. I did and still do have practice site. I dont teach the principles only show the exercises and thats all. No fees no recruitment everyone is free to come and go and many go because it is a true cultivation method or a calling normally done in Monasteries away from society and everyday life. But as I said previously we cultivate and practice in society. You cannot coerce someone to cultivate, its impossible to do that. Then it would not be cultivation it would be something else that is quite evil.

    I do understand your concerns as this is what is normally done in religions and non orthodox spiritual practices, Like the Moonies and Orange people or Bagwan in the 70”s etc..

    As I reiterated Falun Gong is not this. It is an ancient system of cultivation from within China retaught in the 90’s and it is from the Chinese culture before communism took over in the 50’s.

  32. David Kilgour and FLG rep Jana Shearer can claim ignornace all they want.

    But the fact is – prior to US Embassy’s official visit, US diplomats already made a secret visit:

    http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7)

    “American officials from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as well as the hospital site on ***two occasions — the first time unannounced*** and the second with the cooperation of PRC officials”

  33. Bobby you are deliberately trying to deceive the public with your misinformation and your predisposition to only see one aspect of the picture instead of looking at the whole picture. You even said yourself “the visitors” to investigate were Diplomats from the US embassy ( they were not trained investigators)and they were invited to come at the invitation of the Ccp. Why will the CCp not let Amnesty International, Red Cross or the UN unfettered access inside Chinese jails, labour camps and hospitals and military hospitals? The autocratic capitalist regime’s denial and refusal to allow HR organisations into China to verify these atrocities confirms the truth. They are murdering Falun Gong and other prisoners of conscience for their vital organs for mass profit . Nice you guys you stick up for Bobby Charles or what ever your real name is.

    Lets get this straight..

    For six consecutive years (1999-2004), the U.S. Department of State has designated China a “country of particular concern” for “particularly severe violations of religious freedom,” including its persecution of Falun Gong according the report you linked to up above..

    Organ transplanting does nor require any different Theatre equipment than any other normal surgery done in any Theatres in the world. So what we would need to see is smoking scalpel in the hands of a doctor and body with holes in it to verify this is going on? What about the other 33 strands of evidence that both David Kilgour and David Matas have independently confirmed. 33 evidences collectively prove that this Forced organ harvesting is occurring ..

  34. Coral, to my knowledge Jesus was a leader who did a good deal of his own teaching.

    “You cannot coerce someone to cultivate…..”

    That’s a load of bunkum.

  35. NOt sure who that last comment was directed at but will take it up anyway as certianly the last sentence in quotes was mine.

    You cannot coerce someone to have faith in God. Because if you look at it seriously what faith would they have in the God if it was forced upon them? It would not be a true faith.

    It would be a belief based on fear . This is very diffrent from having a true belief and relationship with God.

  36. It seems that someone is trying to play “name games” with us at post #131. Very funny.

    In my experience, most belief systems are based on both “guilt” and “fear” – not to mention some kind of “superiority” that excludes all other faiths from entering into heaven/nirvana/paradise after death.

    People use guilt and fear to coerce and control others.

  37. Yes Coral people do but the enlightened beings that come down to teach people to be good, moral, honest and compassionate thereby enabling them to return to their heavens do not teach thru guilt fear and coercion. Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tsu etc did not teach thru guilt fear or coercion and that is why the cultivation methods of their teachings became so popular because the truth sets those who really wish to learn free.

    BTW that must have been my mistake at comment number 31. I was answering your previous comment and instead put your name in where mine should have been. Sorry about that.

  38. Then we will have to agree to disagree.

    I think we all go to the same place when we die, and that there is no special place for anyone of any particular colour, race, religion, creed or belief system.

  39. HI Coral sure if thats what you wish to believe then thats okay. May i ask you this 2 questions then?

    Do you think that brutal dictators like Hitler for instance will go to the same place after death as say Mother Theresa?

    Do you think that we have to pay for our bad actions on people?

  40. “Yes” to the first question – more’s the pity.

    People who do the wrong thing on Earth should be punished on Earth.

    I’m sure Hitler suffered very much from his own inner demons before he died – the same as Christopher Skase.

    Mother Theresa was very much loved and respected by people on Earth for the excellence of her work and commitment.

  41. Coral, you said “People who do the wrong thing on Earth should be punished on Earth.”

    You say “should” so this means that they may not be?

    I guess with out geting too personal into what you beliefs are then i can only say that Earth is not a fair place at all. But the heavens are and this is here you pay off your crimes, ill intentions and bad behaviours to make the standard to comeback here to try it all over again and hopefully enlighten to what are the unviersal laws of living a good life while living in this delusion on earth. Mother Theresa lived a good life.Helping others before herself. This is what it means to be a good human being.

    Try and read the essential text of Falun Gong – Zhuan Falun at
    http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/zfl_new.html

  42. Jana:

    That’s right. Earth is very often not a fair place. But no one has been to heaven and come back to affirm its existence, have they?

    I guess you must believe in reincarnation. Unfortunately, we have no one to confirm that either.

    There are plenty of good human beings around, but NO ONE will ever be perfect. There is no perfect religion with perfect people, living in a perfect world.

    I can’t tell you how many intelligent, idealistic people have come to grief hoping for a situation like that, then instead finding themselves being exploited emotionally and/or financially.

    According to the Christian faiths, those who believe in Jesus Christ go to Heaven (regardless of imperfection) and those who don’t believe go to Hell – even if they are “excellent” human beings.

    Any kind of religious group that says you will pay for your crimes in heaven is relying heavily on “fear and guilt” indoctrination to attract membership.

    I’ve read some of your link. There’s a lot of very heavy indoctrination there, along with some mystical manipulation, and no shortage of leaders, groups and individuals.

    I received a shock when I looked at your Law Wheel. It has a huge swastika in the middle of it, with 4 more around the outside!

    My dictionary shows 5 different types of swastika. The one in the centre of the Law Wheel is identical to that used by the Nazis in Germany.

    Why didn’t you tell us Falun Gong were breakaway Buddhist neonazis???

  43. Coral, the swastika is an ancient Sanskrit symbol that has been around for 2500 years. It denotes the presence of a Buddha and in everyday life it is supposed to bring good fortune .Hitler appropriated it and turned it black and used it for evil as we know. What Hitler has done in no way compromises the original meaning of the symbol.

    What do you believe in Coral? This place where all people go regardless of what you do in this lifetime is looked after by whom? Somebody must have created it and is looking after it ? Can’t just be air? or something out there in the space of the universe.

    Humankind is not supposed to see the higher realms. We are here on earth to become better people pay off our karma and hopefully improve. For those who have the great fortune to find a righteous faith,(believing before seeing) then this is priceless. I am most grateful to have found Falun Dafa as it has helped me become a better person in all aspects of my life. I have found peace, true happiness and have found the answers to the questions I have asked since I was a child.

    Of course when you find something that works and is good you also wish the very best for all people on earth, To help end ones suffering and to wake up from the delusion material existence being the only truth.

    As for not proving the existence of other realms and life -We know radio and TV waves exist but we can’t see them. Just because todays science does not have the avenue to substantiate the existence of other realms does not mean they do not exist. Radio waves have always existed even in cave man days even though we did not have the abilities’ to recognise their existence. So it is the same for the existence of other time spaces and realms which quantum physics are now just beginning to prove their existence .

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