Humane Education – public forum in Brisbane

Last weekend’s Courier-Mail reported “a plan to teach animal ethics in schools which aims to reduce the number of shocking cruelty cases being reported across the state.”

It is being promoted by Dr Gail Tulloch from Griffith University

The ethical argument is that it’s important to extend the circle of compassion out, not just to your immediate family but to your community and your country and then humanity and then to animals.”

Some psychologists report a clear link between cruelty to non-human animals and cruelty and violence towards human beings, so there is a self-interest angle in trying to improve our compassion and concern for animals.

Dr Tulloch is among a number of speakers at a forum being held this Friday and Saturday in Brisbane.  In partnership with the international animal welfare organisation Compassion in World Farming, Griffith University’s Centre for Public Culture and Ideas is hosting a symposium – Humane Education: A compassionate ethic for animals this Friday 5 and Saturday 6 October out at Griffith University’s Nathan Campus.

The symposium aims to build a greater awareness of the ethical treatment of animals and how that can be integrated into our education systems.  The two day symposium will feature education professionals, psychologists, legal professionals, ethicists, social scientists and animal welfare representatives.  I will be speaking on Saturday morning addressing the political context of the issue.

The forum will bring together this wide range of interested people to explore perspectives of humane education across the various education sectors and hopes to promote an interest in the concept and apply it widely as part of the framework of Values Education.

Professor Terry Lovat – Professor of Education, Pro Vice Chancellor (Education and Arts) the University of Newcastle (NSW), and an international leader in Values Education will deliver the key note address on during Friday’s session 2.

The event will be held in the Eco Centre of Brisbane’s Griffith University, Nathan Campus. Full details of the event and the most up to date program can be found by clicking here.

There is a fair likelihood that any effort to talk in schools about teaching animal ethics or even more general material encouraging better treatment of animals is likely to meet opposition from farmer groups.  When the animal protection group Voiceless started setting up Animal Clubs in schools, they were attacked by the National Farmers Federation as “infringing the rights of children to an education free of hidden agendas and ideological dogma”.  The NFF even went so far as to write to every state Education Minister trying to stop the clubs being set up, and expressed concern about an “apparent insidious agenda of convincing children to become vegetarians.”  I would have thought farmers involved in horticulture would be quite happy if there were a larger number of vegetarians. 

This sort of comment also shows why the simple fact that food from livestock is a huge contributor to greenhouse emissions (not to mention one of the highest consumers of water) doesn’t rate a mention in all of the federal government’s how to be ‘climate clever’ propaganda.

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  1. I think every one should GO VEGAN!

    When people ask me why? I say I can’nt think of a one good reason to eat meat or any other animal bi products.

    And people please do’nt for one momment believe “best practice” “code of ethics” thats code for animal cruelty ,the best way to ensure the best “code of ethics” for animals is not to eat them.

    The properganda by these industries never fails to shock me eg I think it’s Pace farms they have a range of cage eggs labeled “Happy Hens Farms.”

    Well done Andrew for bringing these important issues up.

  2. NFF what a joke in the 21 century these jokers are useing the “animals kill other animals” arguement oh dear animals rape in the wild so going by their strange outlook on things may be we should de criminalise rapes because thats “what animals do to other animals”

    And their views “indoctination” is this the same group that helps fund the “meant to eat it” ads?

  3. Well why shouldnt they lobby to keep your religious/quasi philosophical cult out of state schools.
    If parents want their children exposed to the philosophical double standards that animal libbers espouse then they can do it on saturday or sunday a la any other religious group.
    I personally do not favour exposing any children
    to religious philosophy at school.
    Note that they did not lobby to ban animal lib groups, (as you lobbied to ban duckhunting)they simply lobbied to prevent quasi religious propaganda being disseminated unquestioned to niaeve schoolchildren.
    I am sure that the NFF would not support a ban
    on animal lib efforts outside schools as this is your democrtic right.
    You on the other hand, have proven in the past that given the power, you would force everyone
    to comply with your religious beliefs and democracy be dammed.
    This from a senator from the “Democrats”,( thats
    close a breach of the trade practices act under the section covering misleading and deceptive conduct).
    That the extremist cult you support should seek to spread its gospel to children is no surprise,
    to quote a long ago representative of the catholic church “give me a child at five and it is ours forever” this is an excellent reason why your cults teachings should never be permitted in our shools.
    If these clubs proceed then perhaps they should be balanced by NFF sponsored healthy eating classes, extolling the benefits of omnivory eh.
    Democracy and equal rights for all.

  4. Now now Peter, you really should calm down a bit. If you’re against ethics being taught in schools or support children being denied access to information about the treatment of animals you should say so, not just unleash tirades of silly abuse.

    My public record shows quite repeatedly that I haven’t tried to force anybody to “comply with my religious beliefs”. As I’ve said openly a number of times, I don’t have any religious beliefs. I don’t force anyone to “comply” with any other beliefs I have either.

    The main wool industry group in Australia have actually tried to use the courts to gag Animal Lib activists, with the support of the government and with taxpayer funds. I didn’t notice you speaking out in favour of democracy then.

  5. I am somewhat in agreement with Jones wrt to issue specific curriculum but do agree with you that concept based curriculum is worthwhile. Curriculum that teaches the concepts of ethics and ethical behaviour, with an appropriate range of scenarios for discussion but without a forced view is useful learning, rather than forcing an adopted anti or pro positions depending upon your leaning.

    Having said that it’s somewhat ironic that on the very day when nearly 2000 Primary Principals (I suppose what would they know) nation wide have endorsed a charter that wants to focus on literacy, numeracy and science and reduce attention to peripheral social subjects, this agenda is being pushed.

    It’s a piece of string argument – do animal libbers swat mozzies, or let then sup to their hearts content? – I don’t know, it’s their business. Where is the cerebellum dividing line?

    Whether we like it or not, animals are to a large degree a resource that humans have mastered, simply because humans have higher order functioning. I agree that there should not be cruelty to animals, that’s self evident, defining it is the problem. Is squashing a red back cruel? What about up there in QLD – cane toasd? I do not agree that it follows that harvesting and eating meat is by default cruel.

    If Julien and you want to eat whatever you like to sustain yourselves then that’s totally your business and while I respect your choice I frankly don’t care less, I will however not be denigrated or feel any less of a person for doing likewise.

  6. “a plan to teach animal ethics in schools which aims to reduce the number of shocking cruelty cases being reported across the state.”
    Above all can we have the human animal included? It would be nice to hear that “human rights” were a priority. Such strange things as: not killing them unless you wish to eat them; not beating them because they repair slowly & sometimes not at all; caring for a fellow man because not all pass on the other side; giving him equal treatment in all matters because one is no more important than another…..

  7. MR Jones, why does people who want to live a more compassionate way of life make one (you)so angry?

    Ken maybe you should educate yourself on the horrors of farming “food” animals eg did you no in the eggg industry day old male chicks are ground up ALIVE in a “macerating machine” for the “blood and bone” industries, Ken would you turn that machine “ON” I assume not yet every time someone consumes an egg thats exactly what their doing. “kill mozzies” well no body is perfect people in AR try to keep animal suffering/deaths to a minimum,one of the best ways to do that is not to eat them or their bi-products.

    Yendis “human rights” , animal rights/human rights are not mutually exclusive, most vegans care about both eg all the vegans I know and myself try to buy fair trade goods when wee can.



  8. Aha!

    Another move in the direction of wiping out our livestock industries, and getting everyone onto the mindless high carbohydrate/low protein “peasant” diet, which will be all that future slave wages can provide.

    Using our children, no less! Good one!

  9. I don’t know if teaching ‘animal ethics’ is going to stop cruelty to animals, but I do support programmes in schools that teach kids about animals and where their food comes from. Any farmer who objects to children learning about the processes by which the food products they consume come to be has clearly got something to hide.

  10. Coral please tell me your joking?

    I do’nt eat a “high carb low protein” diet are you aware their are veg based foods with as much, no make that more protein then meat eg chickpeas.

    And who cares if the livestock industries are wiped out they take so much and give so little back (per capita livestock = less then 2 % to gdp maybe less then 1 %??)

    Australia produces all the food we want including rice,lentils chickpeas etc etc so theirs no need for us to buy slave labor food from the 3 rd world. and if it’s a concern to you you can buy Fair Trade food you know

  11. 8.10.2007

    Dear Andrew,

    I thank you for having the courage and commitment to raise the ‘animal ethics’ issue. We need more caring politians like you who are prepared to sometimes be belittled and sneared at.

    Of course you are right.

    We need to have children know that being kind to animals, and helping them when the need arises, is part of being a mature human being. It is part of a positive attitude to life.

    ‘Big’ farming is often done without compassion, to maximise profit. It is possible to be a vegetarian and live without the responsibility of killing animals. That is a choice.

    Free range eggs are a fraction dearer, but the eggs taste good, and the hens must be much happier.

    Those who condemn animals to long sea journeys in mobile sea prisons, full of manure, to be bodily dragged around, mistreated and killed with knives domestically overseas, deserve our loathing.

    Self regulation of the livestock meat industry will never work. Monitoring leads not to improvement and the elimination of cruelty, but more monitoring. Just the concept is wrong.

    So I am in favour of children in schools being taught humane behaviour towards both animals and people. It should occur in the normal life of the school.

  12. No, I wasn’t joking, Julien.

    Who cares if the livestock industries are wiped out? I do. Farmers have a right to protect their own livelihoods as much as any other Australian. I am also pro-choice where food is concerned.

    I wasn’t talking about buying “slave labour food” from overseas. It was more of a reference to where John Howard’s industrial relations legislation and immigration policies are leading us.

    There certainly is an insidious agenda on the part of the government to turn all of us into vegetarians.

    Anyone who received Peter Beattie’s diet recommendations in the mail less than a year ago would know this.

    The recommended diet is low in both animal and plant proteins and very high in carbohydrates – the kind of diet used by destructive cults to keep their members compliant. I used to counsel people out of some of these cults.

    As for Margaret’s claim that free range eggs “are a fraction dearer” – I think they are more than twice the price of the least expensive eggs – which are all that many people can afford to buy.

    There’s no need to condemn animals to long onerous voyages. The animals should be humanely processed in our own abattoirs, keeping our own workers in jobs.

    I am definitely in favour of the humane treatment of animals, but I don’t want our children being taught to “kiss up to them” to the point they won’t want to eat them.

    A human being is an omnivore with canine teeth. He/she is not a cow with multiple stomachs designed to digest large amounts of greenery.

    I’ve worked with several scientific research groups, as have my ex-husband and his father. My daughter-in-law is a research scientist in Canberra.

    Animals used in research are very well cared for – housed and fed in very clean environments, and sacrificed humanely.

    Animal activists with extreme agendas have made it very hard for anyone to research anything using animals, to the detriment of the health and wellbeing of humans.

  13. Vivisetion does not work “animals are not people” If you still have doubts think these 3 words “drug product recall” did you know their are MD’s “Pyscicans for responsible medicane” in the usa that campaign for the end of it for cruelty reasons and the fact it does not work.

    Coral what makes you think an omnivvore diet is superior? have you ever tried being on a vegan diet? what makes you qualified to comment which diet is supperior if you’ve only been on one diet all your life(omnivore) do you allways form an opnion on something you’ve never tried?

    The health system is a joke, My GP said your “blood is worth bottling” all a/ ok b12,calcium and iron yet wt# suggestd “just in case” to consume a “little bit” of dairy and meat I mean hello if all is a ok (and no I do not take supplements) why would I need to consume dead animal? I know this has happened to other vegans as well.

    Coral I challange you to find 1 vegan that claims they’ve been worse off on a vegan diet, You are aware 50% of meat eaters are overweight or obese find me 1 fat vegan good luck to you!!

    PS sorry when you said animals are “well cared for” in animal research I knew straight away I could not take the rest of your post seriously.

  14. I must say that I’m struck by the vehemence of some of the comments. I don’t think any of you are likely to convince anyone else reading this debate of the justness of your cause.

    (from an omnivore who tries to reduce his meat consumption largely for environmental reasons.)

  15. muzz:

    I don’t have a cause. I’m just trying to deal with the facts.

    If other people don’t want to believe what I tell them, that’s their prerogative.

    If our livestock industries are wiped out, there won’t be any eggs or dairy products to argue over.

    Let us just wait and see what happens.


    Plenty of people on vegan and vegetarian diets are deficient nutritionally, just as some omnivores are, but I am still pro-choice where diet is concerned.

  16. Julien:

    Don’t get paranoid please.

    The cults I was referring to were religious; but there are also destructive scientific, political, educational, psychotherapeutic, environmental, commercial and sporting cults around, just to name a few.

    Some have managed to inveigle their way into our schools – mostly religious and educational.

    But now it seems we have an extreme environmental cult attempting to indoctrinate children in our schools.

    I think the government and the global greens must want to turn us all into vegans (or have us die from incurable illnesses), if they want to destroy our livestock and research industries. Bringing Animal Clubs into our schools is part of the process.

    To my knowledge, vegans don’t eat any animal products, but I am not blaming you as a person, or accusing you of anything. The “Peter Beattie Diet” is low in both animal and PLANT PROTEINS.

    If the livestock industries are greatly diminished or wiped out, we won’t have sufficient calcium in our diets. Even as it is, the calcium content of the “Peter Beattie Diet” is deficient.

    Vivisection does work, as does testing medicines on animals. Animals have also benefitted from this testing. Where do you think veterinary medicines come from?

    If animals had never been used in research, we wouldn’t have access to many of the medicines that are successfully used in our society today.

    The most commonly used test animals are rodents (rats, mice, guinea pigs, rabbits), because they have certain traits in common with humans. Some are purpose-bred, e.g. nude mice (hairless).

    Would you prefer a new drug to be tested on your new baby or wife instead?

    I have mentioned a few people in my family who have worked in research institutions, including myself. Of those, only my daughter-in-law is a scientist.

    Until about 15 years ago, my father-in-law was an animal attendant. The animals were very well cared for – enjoying close to a “feather bed” experience.

  17. I can’t see why people get so het up about kids being exposed to different points of view, about all sorts of life experiences. I used to talk to my kids about anything that was topical, whether it was war, education, homophobia, injustice to single women and homosexuals/lesbians in relation to superannuation and other legal anomolies; blood transusions (I recall one of my sons having a debate with a Jehova Witness person re this topic-OK with me-his right to debate)voting, people with disabilities, peace, war, whaling, nuclear power and all sorts of other issues, particularly when they’ve reached teenage years. They’d also ‘stand me up’ if I was being hypocritical – good for them

    About 30 years ago I watched a documentary on ABC about a new ‘machine’ that killed cattle. It was horrific – no guarantee that the animal was dead only stunned. I can’t remember when I last had a steak. I can’t stand the smell of red meat. YUK!Recently, there was a warning, that red meat could be a factor in breast cancer. Whew!one more reason. People survive from cradle to grave without meat. There are heaps of ways of achieving a balanced diet without meat. I hate how pigs are treated – female pigs are baby machines – unnecessary cruelty, all for maximum dollars. Who said we are better than the four legged variety of animal? There’s also the argument, that the destruction of land, soil, salinity etc is a very expensive way of getting a chop or steak for dinner. All the native trees lost years ago, and now we are feeling the effects – more salt in the soil and spreading from state to state, global warming, drought, water shortage. Good on anyone who encourages kids to think, and learn and grow and want to know more – to argue and agree and then DO SOMETHING to change things for the better! It’s those who are frightened of being ‘found out’ or ‘wanting’ who wish to deny kids heaps of stimuli and contrary viewpoints – usually more prevalent among conservative politicians I’ve found!

  18. Kids also have the right to know when they are being railroaded by interest groups, and how to evaluate them.

    People survive from cradle to grave WITH MEAT.
    The biggest factor in breast cancer is GENETIC INHERITANCE.

    I am still pro-choice where dietary choices are concerned.

    I know how to think for myself rather than believe every piece of propaganda I read.

    I am not afraid of being “found out” or “wanting”. It isn’t fair to make low grade assumptions about those who don’t agree with you.

  19. Coral I assume it upsets you the moronic “meant to eat” it ads? “kids railroaded by intrest groups.”

    I assume Coral is not aware of the China study?

    And Coral I assume you’ll agree if we eat to much dairy and meat we increase our chances of eating yourself to an early grave, yes? well if these foods are so bad in high amounts how can they be safe at low amounts? when was the last time some one died of cancer,heart disease or stroke by eating to many tomatoes,onions,chick peas or lentils? see what I’m geting at Coral?

  20. Julien:

    I’m not influenced very much by ads.

    Most forms of cancer (if not all) are driven by genetic inheritance. The same applies to arteriosclerosis, heart disease and stroke. Diet and lifestyle play only a small part, but stress can exacerbate any kind of illness.

    “Well if these foods are so bad in high amounts how can they be safe at low amounts?”

    Moderate amounts of dairy products and meat are safe (even beneficial) for most people. They can choose low fat products and use the grill.

    Dairy products may help minimise osteoporosis (genetic factors there as well). The jury’s out on that one, as far as I’m concerned.

    Alcohol is considered safe in low amounts, and it’s a toxic substance, along with many pharmaceutical medicines. High amounts can kill.

    A friend of mine who barely survived a rare vascular cancer is not allowed to eat onions or a list of other foods. He is also lactose intolerant (no dairy), and now his bones are cracking up.

    Tomatoes give some people diarrhoea, and lentils give most people excessive greenhouse emissions.

    I haven’t heard of any studies relating to the effects of eating too many fruits and vegetables, but I think appendicitis is a definite possibility for those who eat too many coarse uncooked vegetables.

    An apple a day may keep the doctor away, but eating a few more could result in him exacting a fee for treatment.

    My grandmother-in-law had this as her motto:

    “All things in moderation.”

    It has stood the test of time.

  21. Coral are you aware that in most parts of asia they eat little to no dairy and have done so for thousnads of years.

    Coral have a guess which region has the lowest rates of ostoporisis rates in the world the asians!

    I guess your not aware of the animal proteins/calcium leaching from the body link. In any event I find it odd why people would want to eat/drink non human mammal secretions I mean YUCK why are adults consuming a baby food of another animal?

    Nice “joke” lentil /greenhouse gas, use spices ginger etc and their are no gas problems. If GW concerns you cattle alone produce more GW gas then all the worlds transport.

    I do’nt think I will be able to convince you, your “enjoyment” of animal products seems to be clouding your judgement

  22. Both of you are quite objectionalbe on this matter. What people choose to eat and how and when they die and what contributes to tehir death are entriely perosanl matters whne carreid out within a legal framework.

    They ought not be the subjetc of ridicule and childish point scoringg.

  23. Coral, I think you are overstating the role of genetics in cancer.

    While some people may be predisposed to developing certain cancers as a result of their genetic makeup, in most cases they also require chronic exposure to specific environmental factors for malignancies to develop.

    And lifestyle and diet do indeed matter. Look at bladder cancers among gasworks workers (due to exposure to cyclic hydrocarbons), tongue cancer among people who both smoke and drink heavily, melanoma and sun exposure, lung cancer and smoking, stomach cancer and high-salt or low-fibre diets, testicular cancer among 19th C chimney sweeps (cyclic hydrocarbons again), low rates of cervical cancer and chastity, to name just a few.

    In each of these genetics is a minor factor for the majority of patients.

    I’d agree that “All things in moderation” is a sensible guide in the absence of better information. But its also sensible not to overlook better information where it is available.

  24. Soak lentils & legumes overnight; they’ll cook quicker (discard the soak water) & you won’t have the flatulence problem.

    Been a while since we had a recipe, so here goes:

    250 g dried beans
    1 onion, chopped
    2 cloves garlic, crushed
    1 teaspoon ginger, finely chopped
    1 teaspoon tumeric
    1 teaspoon garam masala
    3 or 4 tomatoes, chopped
    2 teaspoons dried mint (or 2 tablespoons fresh)
    3 tablespoons lemon juice
    salt, pinch of chilli powder

    Boil beans in water with a pinch of salt (after overnight soak) until tender. Drain, keeping cooking liquid.

    Gently fry onion, garlic, ginger. Add all spices, lemon juice, 1 spoon salt and tomatoes, & cook for 2 minutes. Add cooked beans, cook for 5 minutes, then add 1 cup reserved liquid and cook until tomatoes are soft and liquid thickens. Enjoy with rice, bread, vegies or curried meat.

  25. Donna:

    Most of the very ancient people in this country are consumers of dairy products and meats.


    Asians are genetically different from white Australians. They probably don’t have a gene for osteoporosis, or perhaps it is less prevalent.


    Thanks for the recipe. I can still remember you telling us that part of the reason you were vegetarian was because you could not afford to buy meat.

    You make some valid points about environmental triggers of cancer (e.g. exposure to carcinogens).

    However some people die of lung cancer even though they have smoked for a very short time and given up 25 years before becoming ill. Others smoke like a chimney all of their lives without ill effects.

    It is still my belief that genetic factors play the major role in disease processes and personality. Stress and extreme obesity also contribute to the development of disease.

  26. Excellent, Feral.

    Perhaps Andrew should start a thread where we could provide our favourite recipes (vegetarian, vegan or omnivore).

  27. I don’t have an issue with people eating meat or dairy Coral. But, vegetarians and vegans have less incidence of cancer than omnivores.

  28. Coral: I have a confession to make. I’m not strictly vegetarian! I cook meat maybe once a week, and these days that’s by choice rather than by economic necessity. But I’ll defend those who chose a vegetarian diet, as I consider it to be a legitimate choice on a number of grounds.

    “However some people die of lung cancer even though they have smoked for a very short time and given up 25 years before becoming ill. Others smoke like a chimney all of their lives without ill effects.”

    Indeed. Its not possible to say with absolute certainty to any given individual that they will contract lung cancer if they smoke 3 packs a day for 30 years. But it is possible to say that the likelihood of contracting lung cancer increases if you smoke occasionally, and it increases more if you smoke heavily, and it increases further again if you smoke heavily for a long time.

    Its also apparant that one’s likelihood of contracting lung cancer decreases with time after ceasing smoking. So one is at reduced risk 5 years after giving up, and at an even lower risk 10 years after giving up.

    “It is still my belief that genetic factors play the major role in disease processes and personality.”

    I think we may have to agree to disagree on that one (with a few notable exceptions). My reading suggests that while genetic factors may often alter the odds, environmental factors provide the trigger that initiates the development of many diseases, and exacerbates their severity.

    Muzz – my pleasure. I’d be happy to contribute to a recipe thread should Andrew decide that he’d like to run one.

  29. A thread on money-saving tips might also be helpful, especially with food and rent prices increasing exponentially.

    I’m wondering what percentage of the population are vegans. Among quite a large number of contacts, I cannot say I know even one vegetarian, let alone a vegan.

    In 1972 I knew a guy who was macrobiotic (low human interference, whole unprocessed foods). Even he ate chicken, fish, dairy products and eggs.

    Conversely he drank beer, smoked nicotine and marijhuana, and shot up. I once told him I put white sugar in his orange juice as a joke, and he really hit the roof.

    BTW one of my uncles died of lung cancer when he was 50, after giving up smoking when he was 26. He had a stressful managerial job, and probably a cancer gene.

    My father and his remaining brothers smoked like chimneys all of their long lives. None developed lung cancer – but one had emphysema and one had circulatory problems.

    Their mother had lung problems due to the fact she grew up in a Scottish town where black smoke poured out of factory chimneys all the time. She was also a victim of passive smoking at home, when she had her own family here.

    I don’t rely too much on what I read. I find it better to look at what happens among the people I know.

    Statistics often don’t take into account various peripheral factors, or are presented by interest groups.

    The latest diet guru (who is into low human interference) made some really stupid claims on the TV a couple of days ago. He obviously hadn’t thought through some of the issues.

  30. Feral:

    I think it will be proven eventually that the development of skin cancers in general (and melanomas in particular) has nothing, or very little, to do with exposure to the sun.

    Even the idea of the sun being a trigger to a particular cancer gene has a low value for me.

  31. Coral

    Australia is the skin cancer capital of the world. One in four Queenslanders will experience skin cancer.

    So you don’t think there’s a correlation between the sun and skin cancer in celtic descendent people?

  32. Hi Coral – must say I’m rather sceptical about that one.

    There’s a well-established link between UV exposure and chromosomal damage, and another well-established link between chromosomal damage and the development of malignant tumours.

    Sun exposure might not explain every single case of melanoma, but I’d say it’s pretty much QED.

    I’m off for some R&R, so be good while I’m absent. I don’t want to come back and find that the mice have been acting up while the cat’s away, so to speak…

  33. I think there’s a link between the sun and sun-damaged skin. To develop skin cancer, I think you need to have a gene, but not necessarily sun exposure as a trigger.

    For a very long time, doctors have kept the weak alive using antibiotics, antihistamines, cortisone, adrenaline, insulin and many other drugs. The result has been an increasingly weak society of people who are vulnerable to all kinds of diseases and illnesses.

    If scientists want to solve the “global warming” issue, they should do something else, rather than beat Mother Nature to the draw by depleting the food supply themselves.

    They could find a small hole in the ozone layer above or near the North Pole, and pump the greenhouse gases out.

  34. Coral even for you thats moving into Dr Vic territory. Genetic benthamism – people still thinking that wayu – now Donna and Naomi thats something to be really scared about.

  35. Ken:

    It has nothing to do with thinking – just fact.

    If it were not for modern medicine, I would have been dead myself at least twice – once from septicaemia and once from mycoplasma pneumonia. I wouldn’t have had any children.

    My mother and father wouldn’t have had me or any of their 5 children either. Both would have died from appendicitis at the very least.

    The facts should not frighten anyone. I’m not advocating allowing sick people to die, or deliberately killing them.

    I was not suggesting that scientists should start terminating people – quite the opposite in fact, if you’ve read my posts on other threads. One idea was not meant to flow onto the next.

  36. Coral

    I’ll risk getting into a debate with you, which otehrs have often realsied is a rather pointless exercise – becasue as you presciently point out in your own words “One idea was not meant to flow onto the next.”

    However one must break down and parse this para “For a very long time, doctors have kept the weak alive using antibiotics, antihistamines, cortisone, adrenaline, insulin and many other drugs. The result has been an increasingly weak society of people who are vulnerable to all kinds of diseases and illnesses.”

    Even taking into asccount you view that sentecnes and words can exist in isolation, the second sentecne must be an inferecenf rom the first. That is by keeping the weak alive, we are creating a weak society.

    this is not fact it is balderdash and the sort of genetic gibbersih those 18th cntrutry utlitarians I referred to and more recently white spremicists try to peddle. eg a strongarmed blacksmith will produice strong armed blacksmiths – rot. Or Worse the super race theories.

  37. Ken:

    Yes, the second sentence in that paragraph was an inference from the first.

    Surely logic would dictate that if only the strong survived, illnesses such as asthma and diabetes etc might be bred out.

    Strong athletic race horses come from a strong breeding stock of thoroughbreds – not that I agree with or support horse racing.

    The same applies to humans.

    The facts do not pass as either white supremacy or balderdash.

    Please allow others to speak for themselves.

  38. Donna.

    If you thoroughly read and thought about what I have posted, you would know I don’t support allowing sick people to die. I was discussing genetic contributions to disease processes.

    I spend several hours every week making craft items for the Asthma Foundation and Queensland Institute of Medical Research so they can find cures for debilitating diseases. How about you?

  39. Now isn’t that interesting? Only a couple of days ago on the TV, someone said that melanoma MIGHT NOT be caused by sun exposure.

    Well, of course it isn’t!

  40. ‘Surely logic would dictate that if only the strong survived, illnesses such as asthma and diabetes etc might be bred out.’

    Read it as it was written.

    ‘I spend several hours every week making craft items for the Asthma Foundation and Queensland Institute of Medical Research so they can find cures for debilitating diseases. How about you?’

    Good for you Coral, but I’m not one to blow my own horn.

    ‘Now isn’t that interesting? Only a couple of days ago on the TV, someone said that melanoma MIGHT NOT be caused by sun exposure…Well, of course it isn’t!’

    What chat show was it this time Coral?

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