Frank Brennan, Lee & Christine Rush at death penalty forum in Brisbane
This week includes World Day Against the Death Penalty. There is a forum in Brisbane tomorrow night (Tuesday 9th) to mark the event and discuss the ongoing campaign for the abolition of the death penalty worldwide – something I’ve written about on this blog a number of times in the past. The forum is hosted by Just Peace, Australians Against Capital Punishment and Amnesty International.
Father Frank Brennan, the Jesuit Priest and social justice advocate, will be one of the speakers, along with Paul Wilson – Chair of Criminology Bond University, and Lee and Christine Rush who are the parents of Scott Rush, one of the young Australians facing the death sentence in Indonesia.
The forum starts around 6.30 pm and is being held at Level 2, TLC Building, 16 Peel Street, South Brisbane. For those who like some music with their public forums, Margret Roadknight is also performing some songs.
(Looking back on some of my old posts on the topic, I noticed it is now two and a half years since the nine Australians, including Scott Rush, were arrested in Bali for heroin smuggling. I was surprised it was so long ago. A long nightmare for them, but in some ways just as big a nightmare for their parents.)
UPDATE: The Labor Party says they will start a campaign against state sponsored executions in our region, and criticise John Howard for supporting the execution of the Bali bombers whilst asking for clemency for Australians subject to the death penalty.
UPDATE 2: Kevin Rudd says the Labor Party won’t start a campaign sgainst state sponsored executions in our region, and says “the Liberal Party’s policy, like Labor’s policy, is identical.”
25 Comments, Comment or Ping
philip travers
I wonder if Thordaddy has his contemporaries in all the countries that have Death penalties.I think in some ways you are self-flagellating Senator with this task,for there is bound to be someone waiting on line to whip with their keys or at the meeting.Perhaps Pauline the Hanson will feel time awaits her daring-do.I say ,you better be in a good sense of temperament and humour.I think one of the legacies Howard may have left,is a world population ready not to listen to Australians.Our advantage still is our troubling easily copied accent,slowly changing .Tom Dooley and his bones are rarely remembered.
Oct 8th, 2007
Graham Bell
Andrew Bartlett:
Good one.
Hope the death penalty is NEVER reintroduced in Australia …. and if by some evil chance it ever is, that we get to try out the equipment on a few hundred of the noose-&-lash brigade first; we want to make sure it all works properly, don’t we? [nobody asked for logic, did they?]
The death penalty, though, is an excellent way of getting rid of awkward observant articulate witnesses with excellent memories from any future court cases.
Oct 8th, 2007
al loomis
i used to support the death penalty for heinous crimes. why feed and house violent animals at great expense?
but the older i got, the less confident i got that any government should be trusted with the power to set bus fares, much less kill inconvenient people. they keep getting it wrong, folks, and that’s when they are trying for justice. half the governments on this planet are not trying at all.
so i have reluctantly come to the view that everyone deserves a clean comfortable cell and 3 squares a day. then, when a change of government or just a new bit of evidence shows up, it’s not too late.
i just wish people would put as much enthusiasm into wresting control of their nation away from pollies, so that the people of oz could actually do things, instead of just ‘protesting’. ‘protest’ is the politics of powerless children.
Oct 9th, 2007
philip travers
Al Loomis wasnt the kid I watched World Championship Wrestling with,it was someone who looked like him, believe me!
Oct 9th, 2007
CORAL
I don’t think John Howard should plead for clemency for his own citizens and then push for the death penalty for the Bali bombers. It’s utter hypocrisy.
I think he should butt out altogether when crimes are committed under other countries’ jurisdiction.
I think they should all be executed for the deaths they have caused with their criminal acts, whether they be Australians smuggling dangerous drugs or Balinese people setting off bombs.
Let it be a lesson to others, that will protect thousands of innocent lives.
Oct 9th, 2007
Magic Bellybutton
It is amazingly hypocritical of both Howard and Rudd to either a) support the death penalty of anyone just because they killed Australian citizens, or b) not attempt to prevent executions in our region, regardless of the crime.
The death penalty is just barbaric, plain and simple.
Oct 9th, 2007
muzzmonster
I think some people have missed exactly what Rudd said. From the ABC site:
“I believe that terrorists should rot in jail for the term of their natural lives, and then one day be removed in a pine box.
“Beyond that, when it comes to the question of the death penalty, no diplomatic intervention will ever be made by any government that I lead in support of any individual terrorist’s life.
“We have only indicated in the past, and will maintain a policy in the future, of intervening diplomatically in support of Australian nationals who face capital sentences abroad.
While he doesn’t support the death penalty, he just won’t help terrorists – only Aussies. Not sure what he’ll do if the terrorist is an Aussie.
Anyway, I have less and less time for this man who seems to lack any principles, apart from getting into government and being slightly nicer than the government on WorkChoices. Some choice he presents.
Oct 9th, 2007
Graham Bell
CORAL:
Queensland became civilized in 1922; other states took a little longer to abolish the death penalty. We don’t want it back – it just does not work.
Watching Prime Minister Howard on TV talking about death penalty made me shudder.
I honestly think he will chuck death penalty into this election campaign and then, as soon as possible, re-introduce it as an outrageous diplay of awesome state power, After all, how can he be Man Of Rust if doesn’t try to outdo the boss in frying, swinging, choking, shooting, lopping or poisoning anyone who can’t afford to buy the most plausible SCs [QCs] in the land?
The first to go for the long drop will be, naturally, the terrrorists …. or at least those who might be considered to be at risk of thinking of becoming terrrorists.
Next, the most inconvenient or the most unlovely ration-eaters in the prison system. Double jeopardy? No worries; can fix that in a flash with a bit of retrospective legislation.
Then on to the real money-spinners: property confiscation [worked a treat during the Spanish Inquisition, didn't it?] and medical tourism [while-you-wait organ transplants] …. .
Oct 9th, 2007
philip travers
Howard is in Grafton,N.S.W. today,and it is expected his mouth will talk about the Pacific Highway.The last interaction I recall with Muzzmonster ,was me feeling he was a light weight.But his writing on Rudd and death penalties means to me he is a insightful monster.Rudd mouthing off about his own Ministerial hopeful as he did in proper translated mainland Chinese to Australian English ,and the proper way to talk about Death penalties through the UNO means.. we have the return of proper ways of doing things.So if you are standing next to some other country s leader and large sections of your own community,which could include , say, the local Chinese diaspora,one must speak through the UNO ,on a subject like death penalties. Its more polite I suppose.Politics polite po. lite, a lesson in English as language test I suppose.Two supposes then add Downers!? Comparative proper diplomatic language and activity.Not much room for the subject matter !? Must be an Olympic sport,Sport!?
Oct 10th, 2007
ken
Queensland and civilized – that would do Coral proud as an oxymoron. Perhaps Queensladn and paranoid might be closer to the mark.
Oct 10th, 2007
togret
1922- that would have been the same Labor Government under Ted Theodore that abolished the Legislative COuncil in Qld. They do seem to have been somewhat civilised back then. Incidentally, Mr Theodore was the son of a Romanian immigrant, and had quite an effect on public affairs in Qld and nationally.
Those who think that capital punishment has any deterrent effect on anyone, but particularly on murderers, should look at the statistics in Texas, USA. To save you time, I’ll summarise. It doesn’t work.
I am disappointed but not surprised that this issue has been dragged up by Howard- he shows again his depth of principles. I am not in favour of capital punishment for anyone, anywhere, anytime.
Oct 10th, 2007
CORAL
muzz:
I think that Rudd will try to get Aussie terrorists off the hook. He has contradicted himself with these comments.
Graham Bell:
Sorry, I can’t agree with you on the death penalty, especially in view of the government’s lack of commitment to keeping offenders behind bars.
Their reasoning? It costs too much. That’s why we have paedophiles reoffending all over the place, and more criminals being let off the hook than ever before.
I think the death penalty is a very solid deterrent against committing crime.
Perhaps Howard views it as a “money saver”.
Oct 11th, 2007
CORAL
Just wait and see, Ken. Wait and see.
Oct 11th, 2007
muzzmonster
Re Aussie “terrorists” I note the government didn’t seem to do much to help David Hicks or Habibe who were in Guantanamo. But then, I think they did oppose the death penalty for them at least.
Oct 11th, 2007
Naomi Cartledge
Coral, when you make emphatic statements, how do you arrive at your decisions? After lengthy research? Reading? There has been enough evidence around the world, that the death penalty is not a deterrent. If there is a mistake made, how do you correct it if the person is dead?
George W Bush signed 137 death warrants when he was governor of Texas. At least a dozen of those people have since been found to be innocent. What would you say to their loved ones? Oooops! Sorry dear, here’s a few thousand bucks to see you over for a while? Truly! And where do you set your bench marks for terrorists? Killing 202 or 3000 or so is terrorism, but killing Iraqis for oil or Afghanis for oil and gas is justified? What part of “thou shalt not kill” do you agree with, and what part do you throw away? Why are there more black people on death row in the US? Don’t rich people ever commit murder? Do they get the justice they can AFFORD to pay for? How would you go on death squad duty, Coral? Would you have the stomach for it? If yes, what does it say about you? If no, does that mean you too export your vengeful ideas, just like Howard, or Bush or Blair or Brown? The executioners? What about them?
How about the Indonesian military who butchered 180,000 people in East Timor getting off scot- free, by the same ‘truth and reconciliation’ activities as in South Africa after apartheid? You only believe it’s terrorism when the ‘good guys’ get killed? What about those in Iraq who’ve seen their whole families butchered, with help from us? Isn’t that murder?
I refuse to endorse anything that remotely resembles the Bali bombers, or Howard, Bush and Blair and the rest, and that includes state sponsored killing or the death penalty. I will not agree to barbarism and those who appeal to the grieving families by using them for political gain are despicable. What happens when the system gets so sick, that people die while being ‘questioned’? OK too? Like the man from Palm Island?
Oct 12th, 2007
CORAL
What about the victims, Naomi? You don’t have a balanced argument.
How many children do you want to become victims of paedophiles? I know of one guy who got only 8 years in jail after interfering with 140 children.
Last week, a school teacher got only 5 years in jail for raping 3 students and interfering with several others. He may be paroled after only one year.
I am not responsible for all of the dreadful things that go on in the world. I am not the person who deserves to be punished by you.
Oct 14th, 2007
muzzmonster
I’m not sure you answered Naomi’s question Coral.
Victims of crimes will remain victims whether or not the perpetrator (or alleged perpetrator) is dead or alive.
If an innocent person has been executed, will the victim be any better off? Or indeed, if a guilty person has been executed, will the victim be any better off?
If you are suggesting paedophiles should be executed, why not say so. Apalling and disgsting that crime might be, I personally don’t think anyone should be executed. At all.
Oct 14th, 2007
Naomi Cartledge
Coral -The discussion is about the death penalty, and your assertion as to it being a deterrent – it’s not – that’s a fact? I hate pedophilia as much as you, but the death penalty has never been suggested for this crime.Victims are not ‘less dead’ by killing the perpetrator. Have you ever been on jury duty? I have, for a serious crime of attempted murder.It taught me many things, but 2 of them were, 1) the evidence, the evidence,2)don’t believe the accounts given in the media particularly for ‘controversial crimes’. They don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story. I’m often disgusted by the tabloids and corporate media’s reporting of crimes – it’s irresponsible, unjust and creates hatred which breeds ignorance and fear. That’s why jurors are instructed not to be influenced by the media or talk with anyone-even family members. It makes me very cynical of reporting court cases since. I trust ABC and SBS more than the others, and believe in media blackout in the relevant state until after the verdict. If we treasure as part of our democracy, a fair justice system, we must protect it or it will be used, abused and disappear.
If you are not prepared to be on the execution list, don’t export your prejudices on to someone else. Listen to the journalist who witnessed the hanging of Ronald Ryan 40 about years ago-he’s still traumatized by it-he broke down several times. What if there’s a mistake made. Several people in WA have been acquitted of murder in recent months and years. Under your beliefs, they’d be dead – 3 of them are only young men under 30. What’s going on with the system in WA? Look at Dr Haneef. It’s been disclosed that wrong information was placed before the court – on purpose? Perhaps it might be more prudent to find out why people are pedophiles, what about the effects of violence during childhood, movies, TV games etc. Let’s stop domestic violence. 1 in 4 women are abused, 17% for the first time when pregnant. Most perpetrators are men. How do we raise boys?
Oct 15th, 2007
CORAL
Let me be more clear about my beliefs. I would prefer for dangerous serial offenders to be kept behind bars until they die.
But that isn’t what happens, is it?
Light sentencing results in more and more victims (especially relating to paedophilia). Criminal activity is passively encouraged.
If rapists get off, fewer victims will come forward seeking justice, and more crimes will be committed.
Will the victim feel better if the perpetrator has been executed? Probably yes, depending on the crime committed. Maybe the victim is already dead himself, and his family will be cheering.
Would I pull the switch on a paedophile with 140 victims, if the government wouldn’t keep him behind bars for the term of his natural life?
Lead me to the switch.
Oct 15th, 2007
Naomi Cartledge
Coral – I didn’t speak about “pulling the switch”. I mentioned other forms of execution, and you failed to answer these questions/points. You very carefully and deliberately avoided them. How did you arrive at your conclusion about the paedophiles? Personal information; news broadcasts, newspaper reporting? You sat in the court rooms during each case and heard the evidence? You miss the basic point, Coral. Circumstances can be very different when you sit in the courtroom, even as a mere spectator.
If you are really concerned about women being raped, what do you do to eliminate stereotype attitudes? Do you think a woman/young or mature aged contributes to the rape depending on what she’s wearing? Do you think a prostitute can be raped? Do you think that rape happens in marriage? Do you think that the rape of a nun is worse than another woman of the same age? If so, why? Why don’t you sit in on a case or cases, and just listen and watch the case as it unfolds?
My aim is not to ‘punish’ you, but to make you confront your narrow level of awareness. It’s what adults do in a robust and healthy debate. I’ve listened to the survivors of violent crimes during the trial etc, and then listened/watched them after an execution(US) and their pain has not diminished. Capital punishment says to the accused, “we don’t know what to do with you, so we’ll kill you”. Keep in mind, that in a large number of cases, 10 years might have passed. The accused resembles nothing of the person who committed the crime. A healthy person is alive one minute, perhaps full of remorose, perhaps they’ve turned their life around, and the next morning, they are killed. Barbaric!
I suggest, that you have so much bravado because you know, that you’ll never have to ‘pull the switch’ or load the rifle. Do you have the right to impose this task on another, when you know you couldn’t do it yourself? Be honest!How would you feel if you killed an innocent person?
Oct 15th, 2007
CORAL
Naomi:
How dare you accuse me of having a narrow level of awareness, when you don’t even know me? Your behaviour is very similar to that of some of the people I’ve counselled out of destructive cults.
They thought I knew nothing about their belief systems, but the worst abuser ended up leaving his group taking several others with him.
I didn’t carefully or deliberately avoid anything. I have opinions on all of the questions you’ve asked, but if they’re not the same as yours, you’ll just keep sinking the boot in with your bad manners.
I’ve been in courtrooms. I know 2 social workers and a number of counsellors quite well, and I have a good idea of what happens in the community. Some of the cult people I’ve counselled have been victims of paedophilia. One was a perpetrator as well.
I refuse to be the victim of your “educative” condescension or your insults. You should learn not to treat other people as if they are of lesser intelligence, experience or knowledge than yourself.
I have an IQ in the top 2% of the population, and your narrow fanatical attitude really cheeses me off.
It isn’t fair to make gross assumptions about ANYONE who doesn’t agree with you. That’s not my idea of either a healthy or robust debate. That’s abuse.
Oct 16th, 2007
ken
Those who are truly tolerant rarely hold the high ground. unforutanly the jockeying here for the high ground masks selg rightoeusness and intolerance on both sides.
Oct 16th, 2007
Donna
Was that the top 2% of our foxymoron population?
Oct 16th, 2007
ken
Now Donna you show great promise, but more subtlety required.
Oct 16th, 2007