Too much power
Last week I spoke at an event put on by Griffith University which went by the rather grand title of a Socratic Forum. The topic was very much a current day one – “is Canberra taking too much power from the states”. Andrew Fraser, the Queensland Local Government Minister currently engaged in taking power from local government, spoke in the affirmative, and Senator George Brandis, a federal government Minister, not surprisingly disagreed with the assertion in the topic.
I was amongst a group of people who spoke in response to the propositions put forward by the two initial speakers. I must admit I was hoping there might have been some insightful arguments put forward by one or both of them, but unfortunately it struck me as little more than just the same old finger pointing and blame shifting.
Sam Clifford was there, and he’s summarised the contribution of all the speakers, including me, over at his blog. Suffice to say, I think the big problem isn’t whether Canberra is taking too much power from the states or vice versa, it’s that governments at both levels are taking too much power onto themselves and away from the community, as well as from Parliaments and the courts.
Neither state nor federal level of government fill me with much confidence in their ability to do anything terribly well, (other than keep themselves in power, which they seem very capable at). I think the weakening of the role of the Parliament as a counter-balance to the power of governments has contributed to this situation. Both state and federal governments suffer from a lack of accountability and the sort of overblown certainty – which often comes with holding untrammelled power for too long – that “they know best” what is good for everybody else. Somewhere along the way, we’ll need to accept that government isn’t the answer to fixing everything, and often enough is part of the problem not part of the solution.
In these sorts of circumstances, having a debate about which level of government should have the most power to intrude excessively, inefficiently and counter-productively in our lives seems to be rather missing the point.
Having said that, I do think we could do with abolishing or seriously reworking the role and make-up of the states. A stronger, secure form of local/regional government makes much more sense to me than keeping the states on in their current form. However, the chances of making this change are fairly slim, so we are probably stuck with the federal government continually accumulating more and more power centrally. I think we need to put a lot more energy into putting back some constraints and checks and balances on government power, and look for opportunities to give some more power back directly to the people.
ELSEWHERE: Some other posts on the Socratic Forum at John Quiggin’s site (another speaker on the night), Larvatus Prodeo, and Megan at Spring Hill Voice (the piece titled ‘an evening in the chamber’ a little way down the page). Megan summarises my contribution thus:
Senator Bartlett began by highlighting the significance of holding such a forum in the Legislative Council Chamber (Queensland’s upper house was abolished in 1922), and took the opportunity to note the failure of both state and federal governments to properly represent indigenous Australians.
He suggested that we need to focus on what’s best for the people. “Governments at all levels have taken too much power from people,” he said.
Senator Bartlett argued that the main problem is that the various governments are mainly concerned with keeping themselves in government. He said that local government needs to be strengthened, and wondered whether the states should be scrapped, an idea that other speakers touched upon.
“Where are the public in all of this?” he asked. “The process is meant to be about serving the people – this has been absent from both sides of the argument.”
70 Comments, Comment or Ping
Graham Bell
Andrew Bartlett:
Thanks for that link.
So far as I’m concerned, there does need to be centralized, nation-wide control and nation-wide standards in certain areas [defence, currency, core education, registers of births & deaths, workplace safety, etc.] …. but the unnecessary accumulation of power to unelected and unresponsible officers that has happened in recent years is a disaster that is getting worse by the day.
The states, arbitrary leftovers from the Colonial Office of old British Empire, must be abolished and replaced with provinces or regions or whatever entities make economic, social and environmental sense for each particular region of Australia [tasmania is the only one we've got so far]. Far from needing fewer local councils, we need more, lots more, smaller and more able to meet local needs but with equipment and personnel shared so as to get both economies of scale and local effectiveness.
In other words, the whole structure of government needs a really good shake-up – and not just the silly ad-hocery that Beattie imposed either. And a new Constitution [with the involvement of the citizenry this time!] would be fine too.
You are doing your best inside the Senate and out – sooner or later the others will follow your example …. and we might even get some democracy in Australia at long last.
Sep 3rd, 2007
al loomis
another cat-belling discussion, ‘politics’ for powerless people.
it’s no use talking about what should be done, when you don’t have the means to do anything.
neither do you have the will to change your situation, preferring present discomfort to the prospect of action.
the choice is democracy or servility, and ozzies seem incapable of anything but asking: “please sir, may we have more?”
Sep 3rd, 2007
Vicki Stocks
I must admit to finding much of the evening a bit of a disappointment. I am a big fan of Socrates, especially his willingness to ask the big questions of all Athenians, not just the rich and powerful, but the ordinary people as well.
Yet I went along to a Socratic forum that had no women, no young people and no business people invited to speak on the subject of Federalism. It gets a little boring when the only people being invited to speak about something that affects us all are middle-aged to old-aged men who are either politicians, judges or academics.
I was bamboozled by Andrew Fraser’s speech which made little sense to me and horrified at Senator Brandis’ comment that we are not a particularly diverse population and his experience has been that we are all essentially the same. The analogy offered by one of the academics that the States are like women who are good at running a household but have no idea how to handle money was equally horrifying.
Socrates was not a snob and he would have been terribly disappointed at both the format of the evening as well as the speakers chosen (except of course for you Andrew….you were brilliant as usual).
Sep 3rd, 2007
Anne Coombs
I am no fan of the State Governments but I see the chance of replacing them with regional governments as close to nil. I also have some sympathy for them: they are expected to provide most of the major services that people rely on in their daily lives, but without the massive income tax resources that the Feds have. The States are the sandwich in the middle. Would it be heresy to suggest that it is the Feds whose role should be curtailed? Sure there are areas – defence, foreign affairs etc – that it is natural for the federal government to run. But when it comes to health, education, infrastructure . . . people are sick of the doubling up and inevitable passing of the buck. If the States received more taxes directly maybe they’d do a better job.
Instead, the Feds are running amok – getting involved in things that are not their area while being increasing unaccountable to ordinary people.
Sep 3rd, 2007
John Tracey
I think it is the states that need to be wound down a bit, with federal funding direct to local government, whose sovereignty should be enshrined in the constitution.
At present the councils have no legal power at all except what the state gives them, they can be dismissed with the stroke of a pen despite being democratically elected.
Local government is that level of government that is closest to and most accessible to citizens.
Brisbane, the biggest municipal authority in the world (or is it 2nd to L.A?) should be divided up into many smaller councils, as it used to be and as other Oz big cities are.
With Qld.’s present centralisation of local governments, plus the new changes, plus the absence of a State upper house – democracy is an illusion in Qld.
Sep 3rd, 2007
philip travers
I know I am sort of negative about democracy,and comments at this blog just seem to agree.Brandis is a bloody idiot,once they have hung around for a spell,they cannot accept others not thinking their garrulous compulsive lazy thought processes are not reality.Australia is in the grasp of a deep unreality at the moment fortified by even the ABC need for a national image of ourselves.God,I wish some of their commentators would get some work somewhere.Howard is delivering the unreality to us like Dad at Christmas time,when once again,we will find out the Christmas stocking and the toys end up not as great joys,but parental nags about making too much noise.Hence, the useless prick,had to this morning tell the kids not to be violent,and the uncle and auntie security people just wanting to have a quiet tea,and discuss the catch-up news are in ready agreement.Grand-dad George Bush is upsetting everyone and the whole family is being told to just allow for the deafness of the old and dont be so cheeky.Coming from dad Howard at a boring monotonous tone,everyone is feeling defiant,then,squashing themselves for family reasons.That comic book Mutiny should of been intelligently discussed to see if it had any more meaning than the bloody Christmas get together.But dad Howard couldnt handle that,not wanting to be Australias first self buried cartoon in a cartoons graveyard.
Sep 3rd, 2007
Sam Clifford
John, I don’t think Brisbane should be divided up; what we need is a layer of control below local government that allows direct involvement of private citizens to come up with neighbourhood plans and community projects rather than leaving it all to developers and councillors. I would love to see BCC adopt a system whereby the local councillors work with each other (where needed) and the community to create a vision for each suburb/locality which is then able to draw funding from the ward budget.
This way, things such as traffic calming, bus routes, parks, bikeways, footpaths, community gardens and so on can be discussed by the people affected rather than having some braindead councillor decide that an intersection will be redesigned to allow a higher volume of cars down suburban streets.
The idea of self-determination is not something we should limit to Aboriginal communities; we could all stand to gain from being involved in our community.
Sep 3rd, 2007
John Tracey
Sam,
I think you will find that the Bris City Council claims they allready have a process similar to what you have described.
The result is the people at the top of the pyramids make decisions behind close doors and then sell it to the community in the guise of “community consultation”.
If an individual or a community group object to the terms of reference of the “community consultation” they have no avenue other than costly legal appeals to challenge the status quo at the top of the pyramid.
There is no community debate or democratic testing involved in the consultation process.
The Green bridge “consultation” is a case in point, never were the community asked if they want a bridge or not, they were essentially given a range of cosmetic landscaping options for the bridge to choose from.
Unless “the people” can take their concerns to a democratic forum then we will just have more of the same.
Unless that “layer below” has some real decision making power, not just an advisory function, it will be a sham.
Sep 3rd, 2007
muzzmonster
You’re right John that Brisbane City Council has been doing a lot of neighbourhood plans, that involve people. I’ve been to a few of their meetings.
But re the Green (Eleanor Schonell) Bridge, I am pretty sure that they had an initial survey which included the option of “no briddge”. Of course, with some other consultations, it appeared that the decision had been made already.
Sep 3rd, 2007
PC Police
it’s that governments at both levels are taking too much power onto themselves and away from the community, as well as from Parliaments and the courts.
I almost fell out of my chair reading this thinking you were going to say people instead of community………
needless to say I was disappointed.
Sep 4th, 2007
wmmbb
Good for you, Andrew, in bringing up the issue of the lack of guaranteed indigenous representation in Federal Parliament. The fact that Queenlander’s are to be financed to have referenda on local government reorganization, and Aboriginal people can have their land taken apparently without “just terms” says it all. Perhaps, as in other matters, this conclusion merely represents the distortion of J W Howard.
Sep 4th, 2007
red crab
public servant!!!!!!
for the ppl buy the ppl.
its about time that all polys and public servants down to the lowest job in a local council got the point that they work for us the people of austrslia!.
Sep 4th, 2007
philip travers
So to see why Senator Bartletts use of the word community,in this context,is better than people..see what is happening to the right to March in Sydney.A letter to the SMH Editor about a march some years back compared to today.Granted protests in Melbourne were violent and maybe some of the same people want to march..but it is under a different banner in Sydney..and remains essentially anti-Bush.Only a snail with the approval of the CIA and NSA could conclude that everything George has said on matters of Iraq and terrorism meets all the expectations of a guided logic by a benevolent force and a reasoning capacity that automatically threatens the most recent of chess champions.Seeing snails do not have much of a command of any human language,very little can now be said about that man without becoming the overworked feelers attached to a snails eyes.It is worthy and right Police are vigilant and concerned,for themselves as much as the uncomparable at language..but shit cant they walk alongside protestors including those as spokespeople who include parliamentarians.This nation isnt at war amongst its own citizens,and when that tiring man Bush leaves that wont change,we are not a nation of cowards either at official level or where officialdom cannot accept certain rights being pursued..lets keep it that way.
Sep 4th, 2007
Graham Bell
Everyone;
One of the worrying trends over the past decade or so has been the sidelining of Mayors/Shire Chairmen and their Councils in Queensland by CEOs [formerly Town/Shire Clerks] and other senior employees as well as by private contractors and other interested parties who have informal but powerful influence in the inner circle.
Of course there were some egregious and occasionally hilarious examples, way back in the past, of Councillors fiddling in the day-to-day running of the city or shire administration. However, that was done by notorious or just plain silly individuals.
There was no excuse whatsoever for using that to emasculate all the Councils and turning them into some sort of ceremonial and relatively powerless “policy making” rubber-stamps. Nowadays, the rate-payers get to pay their rates [local authority taxes] but are then shut out of the decisions that affect their everyday lives …. and continuing to be allowed to vote for their favorite councillors every few years is no substitute for that loss. It’s a case of “pay your money and shut up becuse we know what’s good for you”.
This power shift from the elected to the non-elected would make even the most die-hard Communist blush.
Since so many of the shire councils in Queensland are dominated by the National Party and its supporters, I find it hypocritical that so many of them are now carrying on like pork-chops over Beattie’s forced amalgamation [which I think are foolish anyway] but suffered from severe shyness and timidity throughout that whole period when elected councils had so much power strpped from them.
So how do we go about restoring some control over city/shire council affairs without going back to the bad old days of councillors telling council workers to do one thing and their gangers [supervisors] telling them to do another?
Sep 4th, 2007
Sam Clifford
John, I am very wary of anything the BCC does given that the EIS statements for TransApex projects are grounds for canning the projects yet they are still going ahead. They may not be corrupt but they don’t know when to stop.
The process I’d like to see adopted would actually involve providing money for the residents of an area to form their own community board which encourages residents to get involved in their local area. Of course, the way BCC would implement it would entail another layer of elections of party political figures who can then be used in place of community consultation.
Sep 4th, 2007
zen
Some years ago I was doing post grad studies at the (then) Institute of Technology in Adelaide. I was utterly surprised to find one third of the library shelves stack with the books on…management. Part of my studies dealt with management so I browsed a bit. My surprise grew even further as I found most of the authors confused ‘management’ with ‘leadership’, ‘governance’ and.. POWER.
John Howard keeps telling us about ‘a mandate’, his poor excuse to exercise a power that he has never been accorded. His idea of ‘mateship’ is nothing short of cronyism, nepotism and local Mafia type of practice.
His mateship ideology though, does not let him talk even to his deputy. Actually, many Liberals do not talk to each other for years.
‘Everybody wants to be a furher’ philosophy has led us to the present status quo in this country. Power greed and grab has become our country practice. We have the most archaic type of management in the western world. Smith’s and Ricardo’s “Wealth of the Nations’ has been long forgotten. National and Community interests are not important anymore. Feathering one’s nest at the cost of others is the name of the game.
And it does not matter whether we have small or big councils, a three-tire system, or just one government in Canberra, we will always face the same problem of falsely interpreted ‘individualism’. CEOs have become sacred cows and role model for many.
Unless we change ‘all chiefs no Indians’ philosophy into ‘the little one is as important as the big one’ we are kidding ourselves to call our present system a democracy.
Sep 4th, 2007
ken
Any evidcne to back up thjose asseritons graham. Post 1 was great , post 2, pretty way out of date.
Sep 5th, 2007
philip travers
I wish this subject carried over across the nation now,because,I am feeling so alienated that I think I am heading for a personal depression,one I cannot stop and subject to technological enhancement,I have started groan screaming and the next moment found myself on the floor, a [Nexus Magazine,New Dawn and Hard Evidence are the only mags who will challenge the medical interpretation of this]couple of times nearly having my head rammed through the computer.Part primal scream ,part like epileptic matter well described by others about CIA and other secret research.I am on the way out.I want to state a few things however in case it is closer than what I expect,that is my death by weird circumstances that may finally make people think, there is an evil that now directs the cleverest minds in this nation against the rightful choices of the requirements of humanity.This evil can justify to itself that there is no evidence that it isnt evil, but in every sense of the word it is.Tonight two British voices on P.M. were all about in their own way the centralising of whatever could be ingestible including childrens toys.This is crazier than what exists now,and wether people will accept the idea of demons after me.The panic merchants were pressing the buttons over horses, Chinese email defense research and all sorts of nonsenses that really mean to me Democracy is threatened by its champions,who have now engineered a crisis so bad there is now an attempt to turn everything into a religious acceptance of the reasoning of the empowered.This bloody idiot Bush and the entourage,the threatened riot squad of N.S.W. they dont know what being threatened is,like I do.Standing in front of a computer going under to a sleep, that last a minute and a half and my head being pushed into the monitor.Monitor being the operational word that forces the process on me..David Icke is so right, that the endless crying for help inside of me is diminishing,I will kill this as it kills me..be warned
Sep 5th, 2007
Bannerman
any improvement over the currently bastardised Federalist system, where real checks and balances are allowed to propagate, wins my vote.
Sep 6th, 2007
ken
Hope your feeling better today Phil
Sep 6th, 2007
Graham Bell
Ken [on 17]:
Are you referring to the sidelining of elected councils by senior employees and others — or to interfering in the day-to-day running?
Either way, go into any non-metropolitan area and just ask any locals for examples. Whether you just listen to what they tell you or take down their every word in affidavit form for presentation as evidence to a Royal Commission I shall leave up to you.
Sep 6th, 2007
John Tracey
Philip,
You have accurately and correctly described the connection between corruption/power/exploitation “out there” with the alienation/anxiety/frustration “inside”.
The external forces have a deep impact on our consciousness and sense of well being.
However the alienation that you feel, which I also feel but would describe it differently, is exactly how we are expected to feel.
It is not just you, it is millions around the globe – and the present power status-quo expects us all to feel like this.
Those who do not feel like this have been anaesthetised by affluence and only believe in their own socio-narcotic happiness.
It is those that do not feel anything by oppression, of themselves, of others or of the earth that are the zombies, those who are living a death-lifestyle.
Do not join the zombies with your talk of death.
Realise that the pain you feel is because you are alive – a sentient being, not a zombie.
Do not collapse because this is the destiny that has been prescribed to you by those who you hate, those who are antithetical to the humanness that you feel.
They expect you to collapse, this is the reason they can maintain their illusions because people who can feel reality routinely fall of the edge and dissapear from view/hearing.
Accept the truth of your peceptions of the global demons but do no allow yourself to be defined by them. Understand them, but do not become what they expect you to become.
Define yourself by that sense of compassion, empathy and concern that has been so profoundly offended by the demons.
Dont let them win, there is nothing except our own fears and illusions stopping us from being free.
Sep 6th, 2007
CORAL
When psychologists have spent 20 to 30 years teaching the population to behave in accordance with “Me Syndrome”, I don’t think there’s much point giving more power to the people.
With few exceptions, today’s citizens are almost wholly out for themselves and (only sometimes) out for others who live within their own four walls.
There are good reasons why 30% of adults are on anti-depressants, and lots of children are on Ritalin.
The major reason is that disciplinary boundaries have flexed so far as to be almost non-existent, resulting in an insecure society.
Yes, alienation is what a lot of us feel – especially amongst the more intelligent.
These days, one of my social worker friends says that psychologists are promoting “social capital”. How convenient!
After they have decapitated nearly everyone’s sense of fairness, compassion and caring, they want to make more financial mileage by reversing it!
Sep 6th, 2007
philip travers
Thanks John Tracey, but there are technologies at work that are simply beyond my capacity to control events that are processes of me,and that which are the processes that are not me.I have lived through the stagings and endings of as many wars as the U.S.A. president.I have seen people so dismayed by government before that a slow death of their emotions happened.Don Chipp felt the convulsion inside..a madness of conforming until the ghost in the machine that made it happen was no substitute for the echoes of what…. Have I done.The forces of justification are wearing us down,relying on the faulty memories of those who are really disinterested in their high motivations of claim.They do not know what they are really doing and gamble with all of us that they do.The U.S.A. and its government and enemies alike,friends one day and not the next,have been developing technologies and hiding patents from perusal..this actually now means..there is little point in even feeling government is trustworthy..and then there are the pliant media organizations and individuals.If Police in Australia and the Police Minister look like something from central castings and behave towards people like it is one big bad tv show it is because they have made that choice..the taser is just an eventuation from a sci fiction Police drama..they are boring me to where they want me to be… in tears.My only choice is to say,and they dont listen,we are being brain washed..and micro sleep at the wheel cannot always be traced back to maladies..goes in one ear of central castings and out the other.All this role playing is the conversion of Shakespeare into the last century and this,and evil believes this is the show and there are no rehearsals.But, there are plenty of videos that show completely the obvious pathological development dressed up as important and complex decision making.The man on the other side of the moon could do better.I cannot..I get enough sleep at night to know the problem isnt organic
Sep 6th, 2007
John Tracey
Philip,
Life is a dangerous business. We might get hit by an asteroid that wipes out life on the planet – again.
I might get killed in a car accident tomorrow. If I don’t, somebody else will.
All of this is beyond our control, like the machine.
If we live in fear of asteroids, cars and global tyrants then we do not live life to to the fullest, be it for the next few hours or the next few decades.
Live moment by moment making the best of what we have.
When it all gets too much for me I think of people, right now, who are living in refugee camps with no food and watching their loved ones die on a daily basis.
Or I think of Aboriginal people during the massacres – how did they feel when it happened?
Then it becomes clear to me that in this moment I am warm, have food and will have a reasonable sleep tonight.
By global and historical standards I am doing pretty well in this moment. I am just whinging and feeling sorry for myself.
This does not deny the terrible reality or my obligation to somehow rectify the terror in whatever way I can.
But I would be a deluded fool if I thought I could fix the problems before I die.
The world was shit when I was born and it will be shit when I die.
Maybe I will have achieved absolutely nothing in my life, but I will die comfortable knowing that at least I tried and I was never defeated. I never became the machine and the machine never crushed me even though it tried hard to. For me this is victory. This is the purpose of life.
You are letting your head and its intelectual, analysing nature dominate your heart. Your head is telling your heart what to feel.
Allow your heart to tell your head what to think about. Let your head work out clever ways to fulfill the demands of your heart.
Sep 6th, 2007
philip travers
Tracey…shut up.You have more than once taken for granted you knew what I was saying..you do not know me as I work through a problem that exists for me where no amount of conditional matters of love or hate make any difference.As for unconditional love save it for the technology somewhere I would stick my boot into it until all its technological innards spilled everwhere. again today at certain times I have dropped off to sleep related to the time of the day 911 and even 8.30 which is eleven.The CIA and the NSA have had mathematicians employed their at the highest ranks,there are things going on that George couldnt comprehend even if he wanted too.I am up against some bloody technology that the wizards that created it dont know what exactly it is doing.When some of these employees of the two organizations find out someof this stuff they leave..the fucking cowards..all CIA and NSA staff should go back to those organizations and take responsibility..the cowardice of Americans will kill this planet..and the thieves and cheats of it are already working overtime..F111 overhead now
Sep 7th, 2007
CORAL
Hear, hear, JT.
A university professor I once worked with called this “rolling with the punches”.
He should know. He was the head of a university department at the tender age of 32.
Instead of us all getting hit by a bus, things could improve tomorrow.
Sep 7th, 2007
John Tracey
Philip,
I have read most of your posts on this site, not just this thread. What I have assumed you are saying is based on what you have written.
But if my responses are annoying to you I am sorry for that.
take it easy.
Sep 8th, 2007
CORAL
phil travers:
Might as well chill out while you still can, don’t you think?
I don’t believe in unconditional love or hate either. All of us have conditions somewhere along the line.
I could have ASIO tapping my phone at any time, yet I remain as cool as a cucumber.
The Bushes of this world are small apples compared with some others, I think.
Keep an eye to the Indonesians, and also the “Green” global communists.
Sep 8th, 2007
philip travers
Confidence aplenty above,which always makes me suspicious.I dont know what JT.s problem is,but as far as I can tell my temperature is waxing and waning to a strange flu I am finally shaking off,too much sage tea in the diet which accounts partially for some effects,but a technology that isnt mentioned is in operation.Keeping cool is for refrigerators or ESKys even Vladimir Putin knows amongst his own lot these things are fairly well established,and, they wouldnt want to try it on him,so then there are the Poms who are not as friendly as they would like to portray,and a host of other countries bar none almost.Some suspect regularly at horse racing that the buzz between the ears could be louder than a jockey s encouragement.That is one thing I share with Mr.Putin we know about these things unfortunately,and sadly.Corral is a bit blind,I take my cues from U.S.A. critics of the Bush Family that, goes back quite a way. And Indonesians I am sure havent really got a problem with me,and in a way I have always been a sort of green communist.Frankly Corral that was pretty boring..I dont even wish what happens to me on George himself,but, I suspect it is..and that is troublesome,because it may mean another division in some wanking Rightist who would even test George regularly wilfully and procure endangerment to a man who is himself a threat to the world.He may not believe this,but sometimes,you can see George battling in the mangled English like someone who knows that he himself isnt going to be believed if he said it is other bloody Americans.And not the Democrats whilst the conspiracy surges around himself Cheney Rumsfeld..but, intellectually and healthwise none of them are fit enough,to detect..the enemy.Vast place the U.S.A. as is the rest of the World and past our atmosphere.We only know what we know and then engage is speculation.I dont speculate on this matter,although I could be wrong in defining a problem. Being a human being isnt always being believed!?!
Sep 9th, 2007
CORAL
On the contrary, Phil. When I was a little child I was found to have exceptional vision and hearing, well beyond the normal human range.
According to both numerologists and astrologers, I was born on the “Day of the Visionary”.
I also have telepathic and telekinetic skills that sometimes frighten people. I try not to use them too much.
I take few cues from what is said. What is not said is far more telling.
Critics of the Bush family may yabber on all day for all I care. I have little interest in common knowledge.
George Bush knows it’s his job to threaten the world. That’s why he’s out there doing it. It’s just a matter of competition.
Why would he want to clean up his act in any way, if he can make others do it first? Then he can remain superior.
That’s what world superpowers do – look after their own already large patch, and try to steal a bit of someone else’s.
Sep 10th, 2007
ken
One of your best Coral
Sep 10th, 2007
David Jackmanson
Don’t scare philiptravers and CORAL away
I’m working on a perpetual motion machine, and it’s very important that I have them available for opposite chambers.
Sep 10th, 2007
philip travers
Yes!Coral!Truth may not be either of our destinies,but,my own being isnt restricted to acknowledging anything you may say in a competitive or disregarding manner..All I will say is.. as a child I learnt to be observant of others around me,and , to not expect too much from others…..where I learnt to be reasonably honest to myself.If you want to test me,in any manner,I may have already resolved, you can only hide as words at a blog..whose intentions are not..wether ones thoughts are predictive…killing….or travelling in a manner that isnt measurable,I dont want to answer to you or Jackmanson who seems a terrible smart-arse upon reading a limited number of words.
Sep 10th, 2007
David Jackmanson
Dude, I’ve tried to read hundreds of your comments on blogs over the last year or so…my eyes normally glaze over though.
Sep 11th, 2007
Donna
I enjoy Phillip’s comments. There’s a lot of wisdom to be found in them.
Sep 11th, 2007
CORAL
Ken:
Thanks.
David Jackmanson:
You may need Phil and me to help DESIGN the machine.
phil travers:
I didn’t mean to be competitive or disregarding. Perhaps you could try becoming a part of the new idea of “social capital”.
This is where you do something to improve the community, such as helping with Bingo in a nursing home or doing Meals on Wheels.
If voluntary work doesn’t suit you, maybe you could join a social group. Walking groups don’t cost much and are good for your health.
Maybe you’d like to learn to dance. There’s nearly always a shortage of men and it isn’t all that expensive.
And yes, there are a few smart-arses and bitches contributing to this blog, but what I have told you across all threads is true.
Sep 11th, 2007
Donna
Coral
Social capital is more along the lines of values society holds for men and women, and if you are in possession of those values, you as an individual increase your economic and social opportunities in society.
An example might be wealth for a man and beauty for a woman. If you’re a wealthy man, you have more opportunities to marry a beautify woman, and visa vera. There’s more employment opportunities, you get to mix with other wealthy people, join the right clubs, increasing your opportunities to create more wealth.
Sep 11th, 2007
philip travers
Dont get involved Donna,otherwise we will have a competition on beauty is only skin deep,and being psychic means you know a dude when you are far removed from knowing one! So, I am not understood because I do not write for the sake of keeping brevity in mind,and, those who prefer brevity cannot understand.. why I am not considerate of their eyes glazing over! And wether or not all psychologist are talking social capital or not..I wouldnt know.I wouldnt know if just one had used those words in any meaningful manner.If I give in to Jackmanson trying to read me,and me failing to be convincingly coherent,I fail another requirement of his in a earlier post at this blog subject.Glad I type with one finger,and you are OK Jackmanson! After all, I could compare you with all the other brevity loving critics of me,that surely exist..somewhere..if you are some sort of invaluable guide.!? And check to see if your sunglasses need replacing by car tints and glass.Sorry.Cannot help it…just the nature of the beast.
Sep 11th, 2007
ken
I think the social capital people have a lot of community education in front of them.
Sep 12th, 2007
zen
The very term ’social capital’ is too open for interpretation. For some lovely regimes is simply slave labour for the ones like Bush’s is a cannon fodder; for John Howard is IR, police nad the army, and for the Treasurer and ATO … are all of taxpayers.
The term was first used in the communist block in Eastern Europe and the USSR.
Sep 12th, 2007
philip travers
I know this is nit-picking, but if a term was first used in a number of countries or a country where both the language and political system doesnt occur as a natural event in a country like Australia..how can anyone have confidence their knowledge of a term, really is… as historically precise and linguistically precise as their confidence suggests!? I have a problem when I am referred to as Dude,always have had..will continue to do so.It maybe true in some associations of the meaning of the word Dude,if you actually did know me, that the word may have some relevance,yet, only distinctly in relationship to regular horse riders,of a particular type.Decent people who get called red-necks will testify that , even though distinctly I am not a red-neck that is a compliment in part, rather than being referred to as dude.There may well be a term that surpasses in value, the use of the words social capital, which is already in use.It maybe likely that when psychologists use those words,if they do, they are not deriving the same understanding at all.. as that which seems to be the incident of another time,place and political aggregation.Why not indulge in the ability to clarify matters,for the sake of good relations,I say! Perhaps Corral and Jackmanson deserve it!
Sep 12th, 2007
Donna
Zen
Wekk I’ll be darned. The things you learn from others on this blog. I always thought of it as a psychology term.
Phillip
I think that probably some people have not been exposed to your writing style before.
I remember you saying once that you don’t really have a formal education, but that you grew up reading the classics. And that’s what your writing style reminds me of. You write using a stream-of-consciousness style. Virginia Woolf wrote using the same style as you. I’m not sure what other authors wrote in the same style, but it is certainly a recognised writing style, that is difficult to write in. You seem to be an expert at it.
Sep 12th, 2007
CORAL
Zen:
I love it.
Donna:
I think the term “social capital” must have more than one meaning, as described beautifully by zen. The one you describe sounds like an older interpretation, but it is still valid, no matter how selfish it sounds.
The interpretation my social worker friend has used belongs to modern psychology. It’s about making yourself into a social asset for the benefit of society.
Phil:
I take it you’re not interested in any of the suggestions I’ve made which might improve the situation of yourself and others.
Ken:
You’re right. We live in a very selfish, greedy society which isn’t helped by some of John Howard’s policies.
Sep 13th, 2007
ken
While there is a long history of philosophical and political economy / academic debate over the term social capital as a theoretical construct as described by Zen and others (certianly pre marxist I might add) this is largely irrelevant to anybody other than political economists and academics.
The usage of the tem here and the modern usage, particularly in bureaucratic and political social science circles principally relates to the value of social networks and the “glue’ that binds society together – it used to be called the “community connectedness”, that is things like neighbours being friendly, local clubs and groups were people intermingle, helping a stranger, volunteering and the like.
The usage of the term capital in respect to this is principally a reflection of the economic focus of the times, and a strategy by the community sector to bring the “social” aspect of policy into the terminology of worth and value as an equal player with economic capital.
The extension of this, has been attempts by International Council for Local Environment Initiatives (ICLEI) and the UN to introduce “nature capital” by starting to attempt to introduce ecological accounting, ie. attempts to move the green agenda into the same sort of paradigm. So far with little success, but people would be familiar with the concept through popular debate on carbon trading for example. A quite worthwhile concept to pursue.
Sep 13th, 2007
CORAL
I guess the idea of “nature capital” must also include the local council holding days for the community to help clean up small reserves in the local area.
In this instance, I think it is partly a tool designed to employ fewer paid workers.
The same thing has happened with other forms of volunteering in the past 20 to 30 years. Why pay anyone, when you can get the job done for free??
Both “nature capital” and “social capital” have an overlap with “financial capital” (otherwise known as blatant exploitation) somewhere along the line.
Sep 13th, 2007
philip travers
Thanks Donna ,I had a formal education supported by the Arthur Mees Children Encyclopedia..which had all the classics dressed up for children..and are now collectors items.And it is entirely possible, to read classics today..which requires patience.I am glad Ken has realised his typos do not make his exercises in communication look intelligent.I have found his latest addition still void of a fact, that places Social Capital amongst the Russians, and or Marxists,especially more so when elaborated on as a psychological elaboration.It is another jump again, to move to the sphere of the UNO which ,if, Ken s writings are indicating anything remotely like they are,or have ever suggested about community connectedness ..seems to indicate the peculiarity of either City type evaluations of connectedness or a Capital letter as making something formal,normal and real in address.Ken obviously is unable to trace a fact here about ,that insistence, which isnt being illogical, but certainly… not exactly legitimate.That is, like Ken.. I assume, community connectedness is a real concern within nations and across the many nations,for the UNO. I am not always convinced the UNO is as legitimate about its concerns as a bureaucratic organization, seemingly dependent on experts,who do not even seem to know they have critics even amongst the well community connected..and is sometimes slow and slack.I havent read Virginia Woolf.At least we forced Ken into typing effectively.Ken and I now have that problem in mind.
Sep 13th, 2007
ken
Its an honour to be stiff armed by you Phil
Sep 14th, 2007
CORAL
I don’t find there to be anything either illogical or illegitimate about what Ken is saying. It makes perfect sense to me.
Ever heard of a paragraph, Phil?
Sep 14th, 2007
Donna
Phillip
Your writing style surpasses the rest of us. Tremendous intellect and analysis of issues. Don’t think that because I don’t always respond to you, that I am ignoring your posts. I always read them and find wisdom in your comments. I just don’t always feel confident to respond on the same level of intellect as you display.
Blogosphere is quite a harsh world. However, I appreciate your analysis of current issues.
Sep 14th, 2007
philip travers
I do think,some people here are carrying on,but, look at the poor old Senator,and,the disturbed approach to thinking amongst the the Government and others,I am not here to be flowering away in the manifestations of intellectual capability..in fact, most of the time I feel pretty bloody stupid ,which doesnt help when you see very powerful people competing for that distinction..in a compulsive manner that heralds this nation to go to… no good.I thought I read that Ken said he was a doctor, I was dismayed there for awhile,because of the typos, which suggested a problem of concentration in adulthood, that would be terrible if it was a class room.Corral proves resilient in suggesting that Ken was without errata and I should paragraph more often..I feel something is being slung back in my face.And I can disagree with Donna,the blogosphere isnt harsh,it is however disappointing..I havent felt sunburn from it yet..just people expressing matters my life path cannot readily agree with.And not readily agreeing ,is a great space to own and be in.I am almost sure the Senator here may practice that as a 24 hour process.Have a few good days please..I am feeling slightly less miserable.
Sep 14th, 2007
The Feral Abacus
philip travers, while I’m sure that you have no difficulty understanding what you have written, its harder work than it need be for many of the rest of us. If you want to convey your ideas to others, I suggest you try something along the lines of the following. I haven’t changed a word, just added some hard returns.
“Thanks Donna ,
I had a formal education supported by the Arthur Mees Children Encyclopedia..which had all the classics dressed up for children..and are now collectors items.And it is entirely possible, to read classics today..which requires patience.
I am glad Ken has realised his typos do not make his exercises in communication look intelligent.I have found his latest addition still void of a fact, that places Social Capital amongst the Russians, and or Marxists,especially more so when elaborated on as a psychological elaboration.
It is another jump again, to move to the sphere of the UNO which ,if, Ken s writings are indicating anything remotely like they are,or have ever suggested about community connectedness ..seems to indicate the peculiarity of either City type evaluations of connectedness or a Capital letter as making something formal,normal and real in address.
Ken obviously is unable to trace a fact here about ,that insistence, which isnt being illogical, but certainly… not exactly legitimate.That is, like Ken.. I assume, community connectedness is a real concern within nations and across the many nations,for the UNO.
I am not always convinced the UNO is as legitimate about its concerns as a bureaucratic organization, seemingly dependent on experts,who do not even seem to know they have critics even amongst the well community connected..and is sometimes slow and slack.I havent read Virginia Woolf.
At least we forced Ken into typing effectively.Ken and I now have that problem in mind.”
Sep 14th, 2007
The Feral Abacus
ken can look after himself and certainly needs no defense from me. But I’d like to say that I thought his post at #45 was pretty much exemplary. It was concise, clear and to the point. Should be more of it, in my opinion.
Eva Cox from ACOSS was the first person I ever heard use the term ’social capital’. So I was unaware of the usages that zen and Donna describe above: thanks to everyone who has contributed to broadening my linguistic horizons a little further.
…. and I’m looking forward to seeing the prototype of that perpetual motion machine!
Sep 14th, 2007
CORAL
Here’s my take on Phil’s posts, which is not meant to be insulting.
By the time a person has finished reading just one post, she needs to use all of her scouting skills to unravel the numerous knots and tangles created inside her brain.
Anyone who cannot communicate effectively in English has no business criticising Ken’s posts. It’s much easier to unravel a few letters in a number of words, than to have to unravel a copious jumble of unsentenced, unparagraphed ideas.
As both an experienced proofreader and writer, I can vouch for the fact that such productions of the keyboard would quickly bite a newspaper editor’s cutting room floor or wastepaper basket.
Sep 15th, 2007
John
Hi, All
Back in July I posted the following:
“A government based on the politics of fear
must take away our democratic freedoms.
How much do we value our democracy?”
http://truepolitik.blogspot.com/2007/07/politics-of-fear.html
Sep 15th, 2007
John Tracey
Just as well this blog has a more democratic ethic than a newspaper editor.
Philip’s prose is easier to understand than Shakespeare.
He whines and whinges too much, but he is certainly not alone in this, most posters do the same.
Downt ghet hungup on gramma and schpelling, in Ken or Philips kase.
Disregard the form and consider the content.
There have been people with English as their second language contribute, all be it clumsily, on this blog and they too have made contributions of substance to discussion.
Those obsessed with the form of language and not the content will always be dissapointed with blogs.
Those interested in engaging in discussions with people from different cultural, consciousness and language frameworks will always be stimulated by the possibilities of blogs.
Sep 15th, 2007
philip travers
Please win,if that is the only reason,I have to accept or reject the nature of what anyone else is expected to accept. And Corral so widely experienced,so insightful of language and meaning and all that passes as communication,thankfully,I say to myself, that the world s accumulated attempts at meaning,do not exist for those in the role of editors or proofreaders. And even though,I have seen read and heard Eva Cox at times,is it necessary for me now to believe that Eva Cox is a psychologist that was in Russia sometime.. engaging in dialectical materialism, for a point that Corral was making,and ,seemingly,maybe even reluctantly, by Ken!? Because if everyone is forever accurate re the nature of the origins of words meanings and how to express them here,I can include Eva Cox being in Russia upping the standards of Russian -English translation and expression for the sake of a psychological elaboration named as Social Capital! I do not concede any point or need for correction on my part even on matters of paragraphs.Ken at 45 wasnt criticised by me on matters of presentation,but, perhaps being a bit too kindly to Corral for having a problem,that is understandable, but seemingly apparently one that disturbs greatly. I have a problem,from time to time in how easy academics and people with degrees get away with matters.An example, uncriticised here, today, by me,will be found in the SMH by a headshrink and writer on matters of disability pensioners.I have a whole series of responses to people like that, including why is it they are allowed by franchise to practice with legal consent? Mainly ,I feel endless contempt..that can be supported by endless reasonings.I havent engaged in endless contempt short of reasoning here..but try me on, if you like,and ask the Senator s permission!?
Sep 15th, 2007
philip travers
What a generous,in spirit, man of blogs is Jon Tracey. I must now do a Google search to repair some damage to myself and international relations on a person to person basis,because when it comes to the selection of my criticisms of spelling mistake errors,I forgot,as example that ,say, Ken.. may not be short for Kenneth or Kennard or possibly even Keith or Kevin,but could be a Russki name,and, by the living daylights, putting anyone off who is of that type of nationality means a cultural vacuum. I must look up Jon Tracey to admire his engagements with the foreign names and the misrepresentation of their thoughts by misspelling.I now go to this task with dread,must I learn something? Good-bye Senator! In case I blush unsatisfactorily to myself. Goodbye Ken! Forgive me my sins…shut up Corral!
Sep 15th, 2007
Donna
Feral
We use the term ’social capital’ in education, in terms of the social and economic advantages or disadvantages of a student, and how it impacts on their ability to reach their full potential.
Zen’s definition also broadened my knowledge.
Sep 15th, 2007
John Tracey
Philip,
“John” is spelt with an h.(only joking)
Social capital – I came across this term in socialworker-speak in terms described by Ken.
It is relevant to community development as well as de-institutionalisation in that it identifies natural and organic capacity in a local community to bear the burden of community responsibility rather than the state.
It has its good sides in such things as recognising that having a neighbor you can talk to or a sports team to be part of is more valuable than a session with a counseller.
Its bad side is there has been a dollar figure put on it in terms of savings to the taxpayer as evidenced in Qld’s deinstitutionalisation where people with high support needs are left to boarding house landlords and volunteer organisations to provide services.
I use the term social capital when refering to Aboriginal customary law. In terms of strategies to deal with such things as child abuse or alcoholism, traditional extended family structures, disciplines and authority should be seen as assets rather than as social liabilities as they are presently perceived by governments.
I am sorry to return to the topic of this thread, but it is the proper management of social capital that makes local government the most cost-effective and efficient level of government for policy and service delivery. The social capital of real communities (as distinct from demographics or electorates) need to be and can be managed in similar ways that economic capital is – fine tuning around the edges to optimise return. Local government can be the community reserve bank of social capital.
The further removed government and policy is from real social capital, the more this capital is neglected and atrophies.
Centralised government’s one size fits all social policies as applied to local communities is as dysfunctional as the former soviet union’s centralised economic capital management was.
Sep 16th, 2007
muzzmonster
I must admit I’m with Coral re Phil’s paragraphs – or lack thereof.
If I see a large hunks of works without paragraph breaks, I am much less likely to bother reading it at all. There is a reason most newspapers and books use paragraphs. It’s much harder on the brain to break up the words itself – and there are other things I could spend my time doing.
The quality content (or lack) is immaterial, and I concede that might be to my loss, but that’s how my mind works anyway.
Sep 16th, 2007
Donna
Muzz and Feral
I’m aware that you probably think you’re only giving a suggestion that might be helpful (and I note Ken didn’t make a comment on paragraphs), but for some people, writing is such an overwhelming task that they avoid it at all costs, in case of ridicule. It’s not our role here to comment on the punctuation, or lack of it, of other posts.
Writing, particularly English, is an extremely technical skill. It takes a lot of exposure to be able to write it to a standard that seems to be taken for granted here.
Because of our backgrounds, and this is where cultural capital comes in to play within this particular context, we have automated written English language skills. This means we get to participate in this forum, while many would read here but never write a word. They may not have the confidence, purely based on their lack of mechanical automacy (i.e. knowing when to insert a paragraph). They haven’t had the exposure to ‘our’ stylised fashion of writing. And that translates to lack of cultural capital within this community forum context.
It’s important for others to feel free to participate on this forum with people taking note of the content, not the mechanics, as JT has already said. To do otherwise might lead to unintended exclusion.
Sep 16th, 2007
philip travers
I would banish JT,Feral Muzzmonster to forever reading bloody newspapers. Most of the paragraphs you kindly speak about, often consist of one sentence to maybe three,and to me the nature of needing a paragraph under those circumstances doesnt hold any water,if water can be substituted for wisdom in writing and presentation. I am neither a magazine or a newspaper,and sadly for me..I am as easy to read as a book,as far as pretentious objections are concerned. Any objections I have about Ken s inclusion into his at 45 statements have duly got nothing to do with why I have become a subject of this blog. John Tracey is just about boring me silly,and I am simply too polite to describe within the nature of the limitation of numbers of symbols allocated to each post to progress a point,that he and others keep missing. I have decided,because it is essentially up to me to do so..to say upon reading this blogs arrays of opinions so far, that Socrates maybe ashamed..that the only individual near his basic characteristic..is in fact,myself. I had no problems with Kens writings as printed at other blog subjects here! I was glad he overcame the problem by concentrating or whatever he did to improve the understandability. One comment Ken offered,stiff armed..by yours truly has excited in me a response,yet unwritten that goes to the core of the folly of the concept of Social Capital..I am now going through a process of wether or not I will commit to print..and indeed there isnt a hint of criticism of Ken or others in my mind as of now.And was Socrates a avid reader of bloody newspapers!?
Sep 16th, 2007
John
1) Yes, paragraphs make reading easier, esp. on a computer screen, and esp. with multi-focal glasses.
2) I read posts for the content. If the content’s suffuciently interesting, I’ll read it all.
3) Governments exist to serve society. My understanding is that “social capital” relates to the social and networking norms that help create community(collective) action.
Democratic Government is one example of our social capital. However, I am concerned that Federal and State governments have an agenda to protect their budget surplus, for the benefit of the party in government.
To do this, they are less inclined to spend on “services” that provide social benefit: public hospitals, public education, public infrastructure, public transport. Is there a common theme there?
http://truepolitik.blogspot.com
Sep 16th, 2007
CORAL
One of the main aims of paragraphing is so that the reader will know when you have moved on to a new concept or idea.
For those of us who are able to interpret multiple meanings from what we read, we need to know where one idea or set of ideas finishes and the next begins.
Without paragraphing, the higher a person’s verbal IQ, the larger will be the number of knots in the brain that need untangling.
Large random blocks of text are unappealing to the eye.
Newspaper editors generally want something brief, hard hitting and understandable; but everyone’s efforts are appreciated here.
Sep 16th, 2007
muzzmonster
I guess I was trying to be helpful Philip.
All I was trying to say was I’m much more likely to read your posts if it’s not one huge chunk of words. I must say that JT, though using paragraphs, also posts lots of words, which I’m less likely to read. But then, I read an awful lot anyway – why did I think it was a good idea to go back to uni?
And while I appreciate correct spelling, I’ve never made a big deal about it. It’s people’s ideas and opinions that interest me.
Sep 17th, 2007
ken
Oddly enough this series of largely self indulgent posts, kindly let through by the Senator, are examples of a more modern day social capital – that is people engaging with each other relatively civilly, through the new medium of the blogosphere.
We each have a connection of sorts, a view of each other and we come back here, to view what others say and what is said about our posts. As these posts exemplify, the issue at hand sometimes can be largely irrelevant to the conversation that ensues.
However accurate or not the image or perception of each other is (apart from JT of course who we know is the white mans version of Mick Dodson) it exists in our minds and has some tangible reality – a sort of technological capital dare I say.
Did I say I was a doctor Phil – not so, a qualified psychologist, that deeded curse, but ceased that work many years ago to go the MBA route and chase the filthy lucre. “Cant spell, cant throw” as the Channel Nine cameraman reminded us to protect Warnie. Really I can but like many middle aged men the keyboard only came along ten years ago and the fingers are always hitting the wrong key. Don’t have the time to bother correcting as most of my posts are fired off on the spur of the moment, based on the synapse to synapse speed of electron movement through the cortical vortex. Such biological drivers take neither heed of spelling nor feelings of others – hence the various scolding by Donna at times. There is no more compelling force than the satisfaction of the send button, even now interspersed with a meaningless additional stroke of compliance to satisfy the Senators natural desire for regulation.
Your posts Phil don’t dismay me, it is me who needs to work harder to understand your expression, but don’t be put off from continuing on. We must retain some semblance of a sense of humour – so stiff arm me again. It is the Feral who remains the benchmark of balance and reason, particularly when he is complimentary of moi!!
Sep 17th, 2007
philip travers
And, yes, well said Ken! And having given up the dreaded typewriter as a teenager doing a business studies course to be confronted by The ALP s insistence that everyone learn the use of the computer,when the Bastards Hawke Keating were feeding the chooks,I bludged and couldnt. Then in elementary Mental Clinic school the buggars aligned having a drivers licence with the ability to use a computer. Seeing I gave up cars as a teenager,because frankly,I couldnt afford them,and learnt to use a pushbike regularily,my official long-term unemployed sensibilities,find all the bally-hoo of the experienced here..something I must tolerate for the rest of my life. Yes. You did say you were a quack,and, your remarks about someone almost got my face out of lockjaw.Iwill postpone my critique of the two dreaded words,maybe, forever,but,like you I sent it,and have it bookmarked. Essentially it was suggesting the ALP policy as social capital in supporting a NT. football side could be socialising brawls as progressive human political policy.But I am not laughing,nor crowing in mock distain,yet noticing that not one comment was seen by me on this football brawl and the ALP policy.Perhaps it was a minutes silence..for the lost.
Sep 17th, 2007
philip travers
Ancient bile of a odd and old pukeable feeling,is starting to make me drown anew in the passing years of watching listening and tolerating the government clowns and their bureaus..now corporates.I hear this morning,on ABC the Iemma government rail bureau-corps.They couldnt do the long row, for electrical and electronic signal experts,and deemed job security to complete imports. Now I am all for lifting up other countries expertise ,if, their country doesnt miss out, by having them here as highly qualified persons..but, in this case, the government is running amuck.Then the details of not financing the buying of books for libraries in N.S.W. is aired,again, after I heard from Ian the Causley about to retire and with his final emphasis on disruptive policy,in his eyes,of the city minority influence. Dont know who they are, but,on occasions past,dined on their words. Listened to the Newspoll crap, and heard the use of the word magnitude,and seeing I am getting through reading a costly book called God Created The Integers by Stephen Hawkins..Penguin, I wondered what the bloody hell is is talking about!? With a long number of propositions to explain the mathematical, or, more correctly the arithmetical base of what a magnitude is.. I have my doubts that these polls can even be considered micro-scales of magnitudinal differentiation..or some such word spelled more correctly as that. So I am so pleased,beyond even the possibilities of actually feeling such,that the Ian and the ABC and Iemma government and others have made my day,and excluded me already. Its almost enough to make me change my mind and vote..if, some Party, would just take a broom handle to the fully employed as mentioned here,or retire them in some manner.
Sep 18th, 2007