Aboriginal Children VI
Yesterday marked one month since the Prime Minister declared there was “a national emergency in relation to the abuse of children in indigenous communities in the Northern Territory,” in response to the first sentence of the first recommendation of the Little Children are Sacred report.
At the time, it appeared the federal government was ignoring the second sentence of that recommendation (not to mention most of the following 96 recommendations), which was that “governments commit to genuine consultation with Aboriginal people in designing initiatives for Aboriginal communities“. One month after the Prime Minister’s dramatic announcement, the headlines have died down somewhat, but the need has not. For me, a key test is whether subsequent actions have attempted to address the second part of that first recommendation.
The federal Minister’s statement from a couple of days ago says that one month on in the ‘national emergency’, “15 extra police were already on the ground in six communities and five communities have health assessment teams in place.” Meanwhile, more than 500 state and federal police have been working on trying to dig any possible evidence to use against a Muslim migrant who gave a SIM card to his cousin.
Following are links to a couple of pieces on other blogs which are very much worth a read. But before you read those, I recommend having a look at this video of an interview with Reverend Djiniyini Gondarra, from Galiwin’ku on Elcho Island.
The link to that came from this piece by Jane Simpson, which contains many other good links to useful information.
Also worth a read is this post on Club Troppo by Ken Parish, who has long-term experience in the Northern Territory.
Sending in medical teams to conduct comprehensive physical examinations of all indigenous children is a useful if modest step. By definition, however, it will have no long-term health effects in the absence of enhanced ongoing programs staffed by additional permanent doctors, nurses and health workers, which the Commonwealth is not offering to fund and the NT government cannot to any significant extent.
Moreover, these health examinations are unlikely in themselves to detect more than a handful of additional cases of sexual abuse.Similarly, squads of interstate police sent in for 6 months or so may have a short term positive effect on law and order in some especially dysfunctional remote communities, but will also have no long term effects in the absence of a permanent expansion in police numbers, which again the Commonwealth isn’t offering to fund and the NT government cannot to a significant extent.
The recall of Parliament for a “special session to deal with the legislation that will be needed to give effect to the announcements” has not happened. This is a good thing, as any legislation in such circumstances would almost certainly not have been given adequate scrutiny – which is all the more important given the importance and sensitivity of the issues involved.
I have received an enormous amount of correspondence on this issue since the government’s announcement, including some fascinating detail of what has been happening on the ground in the Northern Territory. I hope to visit there for a few days before the Senate resumes to get a better idea of what has been happening there and the views of those who have already been working and living with these issues for a long time without much support.
100 Comments, Comment or Ping
Marilyn
500 cops to track down nothing, 10 cops to help abused aboriginal kids. Says it all.
I hope there is an investigation into why the cops charged this boy in the first place because clearly the poms. knew he hadn’t done anything wrong and didn’t even speak to him.
Jul 22nd, 2007
CORAL
Let’s wait and see what those 500 cops turn up.
I can’t imagine the government undertaking that kind of involvement and cost for no reason. It doesn’t make any sense.
BTW Dr Haneef is a MAN, not a BOY, Marilyn.
I have never encountered a terrorist (or potential terrorist) who was NOT a well dressed, well behaved and well educated young MAN.
Destructive cults try to recruit those with a potential to earn a lot of money, if they are not yet already earning it.
Most are of ethnic origin, have mental illnesses or come from a difficult background – sometimes all 3.
In relation to the Aboriginal children, it makes sense to get down to the grass roots of the community problems and address those on a continuing basis at the same time.
Jul 22nd, 2007
John Tracey
I don’t know what the score is today, but a few days ago on the news the Police/Army advance forces had met with half of the communities on their list and begun intital negotiations.
The video interview with Reverend Djiniyini Gondarra puts these consultations into perspective.
I have criticised the Beattie government often for using the police as the primary agency of indigenous policy in Queensland and that criticism is obviously extended to the Federal government.
I have put this link before but it is relevent. My reason for drawing attention to it is not to highlight the particular incident or the inferences in it. I think it is an important video that explains the relationship between police and Aboriginal people, on a day to day – business as usual basis in Queensland.
To expect anything positive or healing to come out of this historic institutional clash is absurd.
http://paradigmoz.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/jackboots-in-paradise-police-at-doomadgee/
The police shouldn’t be terrorising Dr. Haneef, but they shouldn’t be terrorising Aboriginal communities either.
Noel Pearson has just got the nod for his plan in a few communities and looks like it is an experiment that may indeed achieve some success in some areas. $41 million sounds like a lot of money but how much is the military campaign costing for its obvious lack of any plan or hope of successful outcomes.
Jul 22nd, 2007
Marilyn
Coral, how many terrorists have you encountered you foolish woman? If you have encountered such groups and not turned them in I will ring the feds and have you arrested for supporting terrorism and you will disappear off the streets while they comb through your live with a fine tooth comb.
In the meantime it was revealed on Friday that the cousin did not drive to Glasgow to bomb the airport he lived in Glasgow and it looks more and more like he had a shocking accident as most of the ‘terror’ cell are walking the streets of London today.
As for not being a boy – I am 54, therefore he is a boy.
So far the cops have found nothing, they have disturbed and traumatised a lot of young doctors without cause and not one aboriginal kid has been “saved”.
You really need to put a rein on the paranoia you exhibit.
I am more likely to be run over crossing the road than being blown up by a terrorist but I don’t stop crossing roads for anyone.
Jul 22nd, 2007
Donna
Marilyn
Apparently, Coral use to work with a terrorist.
Then there was another one at her son’s school. They seem to be jumping out from every nook and cranny in Coral’s little corner of the world.
It’s time to call in the Feds!
… oh, I forgot. They’re Coral’s relatives.
Jul 22nd, 2007
CORAL
Marilyn:
Anyone over the age of 18 is considered an adult, not a child, no matter how “elderly and wise” you consider yourself to be.
I don’t mind who combs through my life at any time, since I have nothing sinister to hide.
If anything, I have prevented terrorist activities – counselling young men OUT of potentially dangerous groups – perhaps including saving YOUR life, Marilyn.
I therefore do not appreciate the disgusting comments you make.
I suggest you take a Valium and think matters through from a broader perspective, instead of attacking those more knowledgeable than yourself on these particular matters.
Jul 22nd, 2007
jan 1
Coral
your statement re ‘counselling young men out of potentially dangerous groups and perhaps including saving your life Marylin’ concerns me somewhat. It surprises me that any counsellor worth their salt would use their client base info as a means of throwing dirt at someone whose opinion they don’t agree with, let alone suggesting that they ‘take a Valium’. You can have no way of saying that you have prevented terrorist activities being that, if you had suspected them of that you would have been legally obliged, as a counsellor to report it. Take it from someone who does know! All the bickering that is going on only deviates all of us from the topic at hand. You would think that a counsellor would be first to achnowledge that. Now, back to the subject at hand…..
Jul 22nd, 2007
jan 1
Coral:
Re post 2: Your reference to cults is correct in some respects, however, I debate its accuracy in reference to ‘terrorist’ groups currently in discussion. These people, in fact, are more often from ‘very’ tight family groups. Their actions are more often the result of deep social, cultural, and religious belief systems, ingrained of many, many years, certainly much longer than ours. The two should never be judged as one, being that they are not.
Jul 22nd, 2007
philip travers
Moore Noledgerable here! Boy am I feeling down in the dumps.All these well paid Federal Officers,and,not one free can of baked beans sent to me to rebuild the foundations of this house,which is terrarising me.And the girls.. women having endless shots at each other!? I wonder how many ways they know to cook baked beans!? Surely this isnt the place,Bartletts weblog..to have a hierarchy of putdowns!? At least Thordaddy is keeping away,the moral infights over the morality of others ,by women is a bit stark for him. As a token young man,some much older than me will assess that,I know as a younger dud,one e short of being John Wayne, I felt threatened by others my own age and so did the ladies,chicks…etcs. So whilst I dont approve of Corals method s I think she may have encountered more than a terrorist!? Marilyn defends her argument well and forcibly,and we do not, however, know if the 500 Police felt they had caught a live one,or a image of one for Murdoch and Ministers.Seems to reason,they may of thought they wasted some time effort and there own lives, the evidence of that is in squashing the recent rumour.And no doubt we will here next the Federal Police are at low numbers,and the doctor himself hasnt now worked for….days.Yes he could of been in the NT. and would the Police up there now be rerouted.!? Penny for your thoughts Uncle Rupert!
Jul 22nd, 2007
Jane
Another very informative link is provided by the Northern Territory Government: the site Australian Government Intervention on Child Abuse in NT Indigenous Communities with a collection of basic information, published 12 July apparently (thanks Bob Gosford and David Nash).
Jul 23rd, 2007
CORAL
jan 1:
There are all kinds of cults around – the tightly knit family ones – the two person cults – religious, political, scientific, commercial – the list goes on.
If I was aware of someone making bombs or planning an attack, I would be the first to report it to the police.
If other women are going to behave like immature bitches, I reserve the right to retaliate against such bitchery.
Donna:
People read all of your immature comments and make their own judgements – possibly even your own students.
Jul 23rd, 2007
freedrhaneef
Did anyone see Alex Downer get all huffy and puffy about “Labor politicising the work of the AFP”?
How he kept a straight face during that little episode is beyond me.
Jul 23rd, 2007
red crab
mailyn
and corel
i thought this comment was about our indig problem.
anyway i saw a top cop being interviewed a cuple of nites ago he was asked what he thought the solution mite be .
his reply was
i gess that education mite be a good start.
iseem to have herd that from others .
but not one of them was a politition.
how about that andrew.
Jul 23rd, 2007
Marilyn
Brough has arbitrarily decided to cancel the 32 year old successful work for the dole programs that have kept many communities afloat and functioning while training kids.
How on earth does that stop kids being molested? What’s the real ploy then?
Take all the incomes away, take the children, force the families out and then take the land for uranium mining.
Jul 23rd, 2007
Aron
News reports from the UK suggest that, as usual, opinion in the Mother Country is more enlightened than here in the Colonies. There, universal condemnation has met this latest outburst of rank paternalism. We all know something has need to be done for decades, but all Howard wants to do is rescue his flailing prime ministership.
When will Australia grow up?
PS. Germaine Greer for PM! :)
Jul 24th, 2007
CORAL
red crab:
Andrew mentioned the 500 cops in his post. That’s why we went down that track.
Education is probably part of the solution, but when you’re also looking at unemployment, lack of social activities opportunities and geographical isolation etc, education cannot do much on its own.
My father always said that Aborigines could not metabolise alcohol.
Here is a sample of the fallout from alcoholism. Perhaps others can think of more.
Homelessness.
Physical abuse, including murder/manslaughter.
Financial difficulty.
Children starving.
Sexual abuse.
Unwanted pregnancy.
Physical and mental illnesses.
Job loss.
Loss of self-esteem.
Loss of social supports.
Relationship breakdown.
Suicide.
Jail term.
Jul 24th, 2007
red crab
corel
do you not think that education of the list that you pend would not assist in the desisions that would be made with regards to those situations.
Jul 24th, 2007
CORAL
Yes, red crab, education would make a large contribution.
I think addictive behaviours (alcoholism, drugs, gambling etc) are also hereditary in some cases.
John Tracey: post #3
Yes, your link makes an excellent point.
Let’s hope Noel Pearson’s plan works. I don’t think $41 million is a huge price to pay for success.
Years ago, someone paid $1 million to haul a dying whale out to sea. It beached itself again and died.
It would have made far greater sense to sell the carcass to the local Japanese restaurateurs for a tidy profit – and give the $1 million plus whalemeat profit to starving communities.
phil: post #9
I can do a few different things with baked beans. My sister gave me a recipe for Sausage Bean Feast, which isn’t bad. You could probably find some recipes on the internet.
Would star pickets or some kind of gravel and cement (e.g. a flexible tile adhesive) extend the life of those foundations?
My teenage son enjoyed Donna’s comment enormously. Just the other day he said he wants to join the Australian Federal Police to put an end to drug barons killing our kids.
Soon I could have a whole army of friends and relatives hot on the heels of all my detractors.
If Dr Haneef is set free, I’d like to see him go back to the GC hospital, holding his head high, but I guess that wouldn’t be easy.
Anyone interested can check out the following links:
The Hilton Hotel Bombing (Evan Pederick – former workmate)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilton_bombing
John Amundsen (Ferny Grove State High School teacher – bomb-maker)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Howard_Amundsen
There is also plenty of other stuff if you want to have a good read.
Jul 24th, 2007
Donna
Coral
I’m glad your son found my post funny.
It was meant to be. Maybe you should get a sense of humour.
And as another poster has pointed out to you already, there have been no Muslim terrorism in Australia.
Get over yourself.
Jul 24th, 2007
philip travers
My father broke a rule and had a beer or two with a aboriginal railway fettler at Dimboola,Victoria. The rule was unspoken,the beer had a label on the bottle,and perspiring hard workers can deal with small amounts. They drunk together in our railway house,my mother didnt approve,I liked my father for that,on that day,and since. The aboriginal was a fine strong intelligent man,the railways separated the races because of previous problems. My mother later in life accepted how badly done by were aboriginals. I liked my mother for agreeing with me on that. And thank you for your suggestions Coral,but the problem remains I do not own this place,and,yes, those items you mentioned… are already in my mind. Because I had access to Arthur Mees Children s Encyclopedia before I was eight,my education is somewhat classical,more so than my schooling.In the writings of Arthur Mees,the only disrespectful matter of race was aboriginal brain measurements,which belonged to a theory almost wiped out. I found Aesops Fables early. Memory is a problem,because reading out aloud wasnt encouraged, at home. I attempt to write,as if, it is conversation that can be heard,where asserting is limited. I think the Senator has to put more authority into his speech making in public speaking, by insuring the softness can be balanced by a strong tone that defines occasionally. Coral has the problem in print at least,because of brevity requirements, to be lacking in some useful mannerism that appeals, rather than dominates. I am sure her insights are not unworthy,but are a problem for others.. to assess fairly.Hopefully Aboriginal children,one day… as standard,will use English for its defining moments.. rather than a language which tends to dominate.
Jul 24th, 2007
jan 1
Hi Coral
re your post 16, and your list….our indigenous brothers aren’t the only ones applicable there…we white fellas do pretty well at it too – with, or without the grog! So we ‘white fellas’ didn’t think too well when we first decided to give it the poor buggers eh.
Donna
well said.
Jul 24th, 2007
John Tracey
Coral,
I am curious about your fathers statement that Aborigines cannot metabolise alcohol. Are you saying that you believe this too?
I challenge you or anyone else to come up with a scrap of evidence anywhere for such a theory.
The society that invaded this country is allways looking over here and looking over there for what it is that causes the problems of the Aboriginal people amongst us.
The cause of Aboriginal Alcoholism and non Aboriginal Alcoholism is exactly the same, unresolved trauma and/or anxiety. Nothing to do with metabolism. Why do so many, nearly all, Aboriginal people suffer unresolved trauma and anxiety? Just look at their history in the last 200 years and there is no shortage of answers to the question. But to blame aboriginal people as being culturally or biologicall predisposed to dysfunction is just a racist myth to deny what has really happened and its ongoing consequences. It is a baseless and ignorant way of blaming the victim.
Jul 25th, 2007
red crab
did anyone watch isite on sbs last nite.
i did
it would seem to me that noel pearson and his few followers are saying that untill the comunitys start taking responsobility for there own situation nothing will change .
i think he is correct.
and a good example
i also listened to other so called leaders and all they could do was blame the govt and ask for more money. i bet that none of them live in any community.
it is not a good example to set.
i was wondering what the penalty for interfering with a child is in indig law
mabe the lernerd john tracy could tell us i would suspect that it is farly harsh.
i think that the only time that any federal govt will take any real notice of the indig situation in the bush is when they really do take resonsobility for there own future and tell the govt to bugger off.
remember this if the govt is sucsessful in changing the law in regards to supply of alcahole to any place in the country nomater the reason then the law will cover all of australia and the can stop supply to anyone.
i dont drink and mabe to me that is a good thing but on the other hand it will be just another rite that everyone will loose.
anyway beware of this as iv sead before this govt dose nothing without some sort of agenda . smoke and mirrors.
Jul 25th, 2007
CORAL
John Tracey:
As I said, it was my father’s opinion that alcohol affected Aboriginal people adversely more than it did white people. His observation – not mine.
I was not being racist – just trying to point out that alcoholism can lead to plenty of other problems – whether black or white.
I was not blaming anybody for anything. People always seem to want to extrapolate in a negative direction about everything.
I don’t think unresolved trauma and anxiety are the only causes of alcoholism.
What about having nothing worthwhile to do?
What about realising one day that you’ve made a lot of mistakes that are too difficult to turn around?
What about being unhappy in a relationship and drowning yourself in drink?
And let’s not forget the hereditary factor as well (at least for whites).
My eldest son is both an alcoholic and a gambler (same as his grandfather). I think the main reason for this is the fact that he has made multiple mistakes through not listening to, or co-operating with, anyone -probably with hereditary factors thrown in, along with a desire NOT to grow up and take responsibility for himself.
Now he sees his brother (one year younger) with a nice home, highly paid job, wife and 2 little children – while he has nothing but a pile of debts and some health problems, despite starting out with a very high potential.
I guess this would make nearly anyone depressed.
red crab:
A social worker told me that if an Aboriginal man interferes sexually with a child, he gets speared.
In the white society, the age for sexual consent is 16 for heterosexuals and 18 for homosexuals.
Perhaps JT could also tell us what the ages are in the Aboriginal culture.
I thought the government wanted to control the availability of alcohol – not take it away altogether.
Jul 25th, 2007
John Tracey
red crab and Coral
Thank you for acknowledging me as a renowned authority on these matters.
I am a little hesitent to answer these questions because I fear that the white commentariate, including ourselves, is far too opinionated and outspoken on matters that we only have a glimpse or two of.
But here are a couple of glimpses.
I have heard of one mob in one place whose punishment for child abuse was for the perpetrator to be tied down on an ants nest until there was no meat left. But this is not as a deterent or a punishment, simply to make them dissappear.
It is the spirituality, not the legalism that drives such a law.
As for the age of consent. As I understand it this is when a person is considered ready by the elders.
However, the essence of law that protects children is not based on deterrence or punishment but the structural organisation of society into mens business and womens business as well as a generally communal lifestyle. For example, if the men are going to get a bit intoxicated on fermented fruit or magic mushrooms for a few days the children will be with the women, a long way from this, so the issue of drunken child abuse cannot arise.
Delegitimising customary law is worst thing to do regarding child sexual abuse.
Jul 25th, 2007
Blair Bartholomew
Dear John
“Delegitimising customary law is worst thing to do regarding child sexual abuse.”
Is child sexual abuse occurring under customary law? Or have you defined customary law “As for the age of consent. As I understand it this is when a person is considered ready by the elders.”
Voila no child abuse! What the elders decide, no doubt after discussing the issue with the 11 or 12 year girl affected goes?
Welcome to 2007.
Blair
Jul 25th, 2007
Marilyn
Blair, children under 10 are not allowed to give evidence anyway as they are considered unreliable. Most children don’t know they are being abused if the person is kind to them and most times the children love the abusers.
It is not about grog, it is about power.
Jul 25th, 2007
CORAL
A child’s ability to give evidence is sometimes determined on his/her intellectual age.
The age of 10 is the legal age at which children can be held responsible for their own actions (at least on paper) by the courts.
In practice, children are seldom held legally responsible for anything they do until they are at least 14 years old, generally older.
I think it is about grog – also about power. It’s about other things as well.
I think most children do know when they’re being abused, and are more likely to be afraid to say so.
Blair:
My understanding is that, under customary law, the women keep the kids out of harm’s way.
JT:
Can you give us an approximate age of consent then?
Jul 25th, 2007
TrishaM
Coral, you are not the first person I have heard using the term this way, but can I just mention that when you say “they are of ethnic origin,” it means nothing, because we are all of “ethnic origin.
An ‘ethnic group’ is one distinguished by others or itself on the basis of a unique culture, national origin, or (by some) racial charaacteristics.’
I’m a part of the fairly broadly defined group “white Australian” .. maybe with a Celtic flavour, though faint, since 3 generations have passed since the last of my kin stepped off the boat onto Australian soil.
You may be part of that group, but maybe you define yourself as having stronger English, or German or Italian or whatever influences. The point is that every human being can be defined as being part of an ethnic group, unless, I suppose, they define themselves out of all of them.
Every terrorist, child abuser, police officer or government minister is of some ethnic origin or another. Different ethnic groups, most of them, particularly the child molesters I’d say.
As a former victim of two different child abusers, both of whom belonged to the same ethnic group as me, I’m waiting for the ’state of emergency’ to be declared and the cops to arrive to protect them. When are they going to be medically examined? If their parents are not recieving welfare, how is theri attednance at school going to be monitored? As closely as that of the aboriginal kids? I have my doubts.
I’m not against protecting kids … I’m just against pretending that all (or even most) of our problems of child abuse, or of alcoholism, of hopelessness, of disadvantage, or lack of equitable distribution of resources are linked to ethnicity.
As Andrew said, the way that resources have been distributed in the cases of so very many poor little abused kids versus the effort put into setting up this unfortunate young man show only too clearly where our priorities are.
Jul 25th, 2007
reed crab
just thought
in recent timesover here in the west its been proven in a few cases that the so called abused children and some mollested minors have been crying wolf so they can get an outcome either attention or a way of getting back at someone who has upset them in some way.
how do we work out where the truth finishes and the lies start.
we all know how things can snowball out of control if we make too mutch of a thing out of a situation.
i like the idea of the ants nest for anyone who interfears with a minor .
but i also know how a minor will blow a story out of proportion and lie to get there own way.as most know that there is no repecusions for there actions.
Jul 26th, 2007
CORAL
TrishaM:
I linked nothing to ethnicity. You must have extrapolated on that one.
I don’t think anyone’s pretending that child abuse, alcoholism etc is linked to ethnicity per se.
I think the scenario relating to national security vs child welfare is much bigger than the one you paint.
red crab:
That’s right. I like the way you look at matters across a broad perspective.
The empowerment of children in general has gone overboard in a lot of ways (not just abuse issues), and now sometimes it’s the adults that need to be rescued.
Today’s kids are too spoilt and have little respect for adults. Television ads portray little children as the wise advisers of adults.
What can I say? We live in a mad world.
Jul 26th, 2007
ken
Loathe as I am to enter any debate involving Marilyn for fear of upsetting her numerous defenders (read people who excuse emotianal attachment as a defence against rash innacurracies) – however # 27 I (moi, me) personally have taken evidnce from children as young as 4, presented it in Childrens Courts and had offenders charged as a result). Not only accepetd by the courts but withstood appeal to the District Court – so stick to islam.
Although the power comment is basically correct
Jul 26th, 2007
Marilyn
Do you know what Ken? I was abused, beaten and molested by three men in my immediate family from the ages of 7 – 13. I told the priest, the headmaster, the cops, I screamed it from the rooftops from the time I was 14 years old and guess what happened.
Nothing, nada, zip so do not dare to patronise me.
Jul 26th, 2007
philip travers
Having mentioned Primal Scream and Arthur Janov before today,I will rise to the occasion again,and say that, this approach, now almost completely forgotten about, gave a unusual evidence of potential for allowing deeply troubled adults a chance to eliminate problems, that were the results of abuse in childhood.That evidence was a unique photo of a young woman s then, punished body and the imprint of that physical punishment in and on the adult body.A traumatic experience showed up like a canvas painting on the part of her body she could account for through therapy.This photo,is like knowing when seen for the first time,the adult world, all the behaviours of individuals.. gets confronted by this as evidence.With the pressure inside building up as key things are remembered consciously,it doesnt take long,before all its are the off colour.. remains of deeper psychological awareness , and hence, the problem of the wholer self makes the head no longer resistant, to all the truth hidden by adult means.. to avoid the build-up of the unresolveable total being.Now Arthur& his researchers had the usual scornful protests from the profession,and even the ABC, couldnt really resist it,when he ended up in New Zealand on a holiday.Poor Arthur just wasnt allowed to have a holiday,a Primal Man wouldnt dare do it.Not for Arthur to allow himself to be dragged into the problem of professional jealousy,and whatever drives that,but shit,because MacEnroe the tennis player had something to do with Primal, Arthur a genuine man,trying to deal with his professional responses as well as his private ones..retreated I am sure.Not a white flag, but maybe a nappy, & others needed it.And who really needs to be a therapist,indeed a patient of this if you find life enjoyable!? So there is no real mystery of why it isnt a political movement.As a afterthought,Arthur isnt going to be proven right about some observations he has made,but,that doesnt mean he is wrong.Human beings are unusual creatures!
Jul 26th, 2007
TrishaM
Coral. Look at the top of the comments (22 July) – you claimed about terrorists: “Most are of ethnic origin … “ My point is that we all have at least one ethnic origin or another – and if you look at humans scientifically we are all much more the same than we are different.
My other point was that if only aboriginal child abuse is an emergency, why are the greater numbers of non-aboriginal children not being protected from their abusers with the same type of measures? Those numbers will undoubtedly be greater, since aboriginal people are only 2% of our population – if their situtation is an emergency what would we say if we knew the numbers of ALL abused children? We know the answer … no emergency because no headlines there … and no hidden agenda.
Looks to me like removal of aboriginal land rights and their ability to control access to their land are the real targets in this hypocritical exercise.
There is a limit to how much good can be done in these showy stunts .. kids in remote communities are examined, and lo and behold many are being referred to ENT specialists, but there are none in the task force, and in fact none in Alice Springs, for example. Who is going to get the kids to Darwin or Adelaide to get something done for them?
We know the answer … no emergency in ENT cases … or anywhere else except the opinion polls.
Jul 26th, 2007
paul walter
Redcrab, commendations on your intervention. Certainly not very lady like, is it?
( Do you hear that, ladies?
Your unbecoming caterwauling has become so disturbing to the peace that even men have had to intervene here. Remember, men maybe somewhere, trying to think seriously on urgent subjects, such as women’s spankings! ).
Thanks to Andrew for including the pararaph by Ken Parish. To me its a reminder that whoever gets in in the upcoming fed election, the current conflict based politics over just about everything from health and rivers to education and Indigenous affairs is so counter-productive.
Its an odd thing- sometimes if the issue is serious enough people who have been adversaries find themselves allies just the once as well. Am thinking of Marilyn and Coral briefly united in their detestation of abuse of women and children by angry out of control blokes. Happens in many societies and alcohol and excess drugs are often catalysts.
I thought Coral’s off the cuff remark wishing that Dr Haneef is released and back at work in full retention of his dignity identical to my feeling on that score. Odder and odder.
I know others think it unlikely; likely rather he is deported and only too eager to get out, anyway. And that’s a shame.
Jul 27th, 2007
ken
Thats very sad marilyn – you are not alone in that a large number of people unfortuantely disclosed to people unable, unwilling or indifferent to what to do. Thats probably in the 60s.
Jul 27th, 2007
red crab
marilyn.
there is no doute at all that there are many genuine casses of child abuse.as i sead before the ants nest sounds good to me .
but
we both know that for every genuine case there are many more bogas casses.
my point is how do we distinguish the difference between them when there is no! repecusions for the person that makes a incorect acusation against some adult knowing it to be a lie.
i spoke to a friend yesterday who was married to a idig lady and lived in a community in the north west his point of view was very interesting .
armed with the same infomation i think the govt mite have a different aproch to the probelem
there seems to be a lot more there than meets the eye .
look a bit closser!
Jul 27th, 2007
CORAL
TrishaM:
You can’t take only a few words of a sentence and use it to bash other posters. I listed 3 possibilities, which I said could come in a combination.
Please don’t waste our time with nitpicking.
I think you need to view the situation of the sexually abused across a broader perspective – also spending more time reading and understanding posts – and less time on the attack.
A social worker friend has recently had to take 2 children permanently away from a mother who will not leave her paedophile husband. Now she is expecting another baby. It will be taken away too. To my knowledge, these people are white. They live in Brisbane.
Unfortunately, the mother is too co-dependent to protect her own children, preferring to bury her head in the sand in relation to her husband’s previous conviction.
marilyn:
I’m sorry you were the victim of gutless adults – the priest and others – not to mention perpetrators.
I don’t think Ken was trying to be patronising. It wasn’t him that sexually attacked you, and it wasn’t me either.
Let us at least be glad that these things are changing, albeit slowly, with jail terms still being too short and perpetrators reoffending.
Jul 27th, 2007
Marilyn
For heaven’s sake Coral and Ken the point is that nothing has changed. Only 1% of adult rape cases are ever prosecuted because the women’s reputations are destroyed in the process. Look at the scum in the Brimble case – do you think she would have reported the “date” rape if she had lived? Not likely considering the attitude of the men who look like being charged.
In the cases of child sexual assault the government are approaching the problem as if young kids know what is being done to them. They don’t, they usually depend on the abuser and that has not changed since the 1960’s.
Now in fact it has got worse because the people know how shamefully they will be treated by the system if it is reported and just don’t bother.
In indigenous communities how much more difficult for the kids then? They rely on the elders and are not taught any different and the elders think they can do what they like.
Then we have the government smearing all aboriginal men when the reality was that most of the abuse was by white men.
Really and truly I wish some people would engage the reality of what happens instead of jumping at rot and pretending they have a clue. I have been counselling other abuse victims since I was 20 years old – 34 years – and it is just not that easy to give simplistic clap trap and think it will all go away.
It takes years to trust anyone to tell, it takes more years of trying to recover and years more of ongoing nightmares.
How much harder for kids in remote communities.
Some of you have the notions of children and I find it very distressing that you attack instead of looking at what is happening here.
Howard demands the land, Downer says we will sell uranium to India just a few weeks later.
Jul 27th, 2007
ken
I give up – thats exactly why I was loath to enter the debate – to be lectuerd by a silly woman whose whole life has been one great trauma of family tragedy afetr antoehr, as she has publically disclosed on any numbner occasiosn on this site, no wonder all those thigns have happended to her, who proves constantly, and for that matter is the most abusive poster on this site, that a lot of inforamtion does not corelate postiiviyl wiht knowledge.
Jul 27th, 2007
paul walter
Ken, that was not fair. Seriously.
That last post is what substantial contributors would regard as “ad hominem”- playing the person not the ball”.
Marilyn and Trisha are not asking for sympathy. They received little enough when they needed it.
Unfortunately the past cannot be unmade. But the present is too important to down to earth people for it to be ignored for self indulgence and pity- they moved on, which would have been tough and a serious acheivement; something so remarkable we would regard it as an accomplishment for an adult, let alone a kid. For the sad point is that abuse sufferers lose their illusions early
No. Not much sympathy for battlers white or black in our society today.
And the abusers are often even more pathetic than than the abused, it often seems to turn out. They were crippled by shocking experiences themselves during their childhoods and seem to have been warped into not having control over their own lives and actions. What can be more pathetic than this? ( at least the abused of the stronger Trish A. and Marilyn sort have the consolation of knowing they did no harm to another ).
Marilyn and Trish are focussed instead on the reality of child abuse and are critical of a serious issue being employed as a political football or gimmick by a particular party or other in an election year ( yes, am aware Labor does this also; THAT’S what worries me!!).
getting in the way of the application of genuine( yes, I said “genuine” ) reforms to prevent more of what happened to them happening.
As for Coral, I think she is genuinely as horified at violence as I am, and was desperately hopeful that the feds intervention was the way to go.
Even Ken.
But, sorry, I don’t beleive the federal intervention was well enough thought out or applied for enough of the right reasons.
It’s like the “surge” in Iraq: too little, too te for a situatin that should never have happened in the first place because of too many shabby motives.
Jul 27th, 2007
TrishaM
Thanks Paul, on behalf of myself. You rightly identified that people of my generation were often not believed when they reported abuse, but instead often told we were naughty for saying such things. I personally was beaten for having told my mother than her father had abused me.
I’m not asking for sympathy for the little girl that I once was, but for help for ALL kids who are being abused right now, as you are reading this. I don’t care what colour their skin is, they deserve better than being used as a stick to beat another political party with.
This is about all I have to say about that.
Jul 27th, 2007
red crab
Howard demands the land, Downer says we will sell uranium to India just a few weeks later.
thanks marilyn.
i just wonder if that could be a govt agenda
ah no this govt would never do anything under handed like that.:-)
Jul 27th, 2007
John Tracey
a sneaky agenda?
- resuming Aboriginal land in N.T. and saying mining companies should have a bigger role in Aboriginal communities
- demanding states release vacant crown land (which is native title land) for housing
- wanting tourism operators to take a larger role in management of national parks.
across issues and portfolios there seems a coherent strategy to privatise the national estate.
Jul 29th, 2007
red crab
john tracey.
it just gets back to education keep it exclusive and there is oppitunity for control.
this govt knows that ppl without education
look but dont see
hear but dont listen
belive but never question.
Jul 30th, 2007
ken
I agree Paul – but Marylin is a regualr ad hominiser – when in Rome.
I get somewhat exasperatd by a) people not understadning or misinterperting posts and b) people ascribing motives to me that are simply not accurate and c) broad brush generlaisations based on personal experince and emotion masquerading as truth.
If there is anyione else on this site that has a) legally removed children fronm abusive situations, b) proescuted offenders c) placed young children in foster care and worked with them and their family to overcome the abuse or at least deal with it and d) seen soem of these children out their toadya s noted memebers of socity in a rnage of fields whose lives have been shaped by that intervnetion then come and talk to me about child abuse.
Jul 30th, 2007
John Tracey
Ken,
To begin, I don’t doubt your integrity and I don’t dispute the horror of some family situations.
I am curious about your attitude to the following in terms of strategies to protect children.
“It found Queensland children with links to the child protection system were nine times more likely to die from fatal assaults and five times more likely to commit suicide than other children.”
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,20701081-3102,00.html
Jul 30th, 2007
Ken
JT that’s not an easy question. There are many contributing factors, the most obvious is what other children is it compared to. All others? Came into contact with – does that mean removed & in care? or notified & left in a sub st&ard care situation. Without that sort of data it’s just not possible to comment.
In my first year as a CWA I initiated action that led to 5 children becoming State Wards, in my last year 0. In the early years I could walk into a situation, make an assessment, take some evidence, remove children, front the court the next day & then work it through all in good faith black or white didn’t make any difference (to me at least). In the end, & its probably worse today, Officers were paralysed to act, court orders were needed prior to serious intervention, except in the most appalling physical risk situations, child advocates are at every corner, the degree of children at risk of drug dependent / Psychiatrically disturbed kids had multiplied.
So some had abused their “power” in the past the system is now over regulated. Kids r left in situations that wouldn’t have been tolerated, (but fixable that’s the key) in bygone years. It’s easier to leave them, hence I feel more deaths, not in the system, but known to the system, but not probably attended to.
For my 8 years as a welfare officer 4 kids I knew of directly were killed. I was directly involved with 1 & still to this day feel some guilt as to did we do the wrong thing leaving him at that time – despite being cleared by the coroner.
There’s much better information on this today, health are more clued in than before, But I don’t believe the system we have today is effective, it may be more transparent but at a cost. Sometimes everyone seems to have more rights than the child. But I’m probably looking back through the misty eyes of yore!!
Anyway a self report staff survey, primarily premised I would bet on getting more staff is not quite the research report I would use
Jul 30th, 2007
John Tracey
Ken,
The C.M. article suggests the comparison is with all children.
The article is written sensationally in that it implies welfare agencies are responsible for the deaths. I am not surprised by these figures because these kids obviously had problems in the first place to trigger intervention.
But the key point as I see it is that the interventions don’t work, a fact proven by more than this report. Removing a child from place A to place B is not the solution, nor is increasing staff within the same program.
The NT police/military thing is just bizzare – a super intervention with no apparent plan at all.
repairing families is the answer. Its easy to say that, much more difficult to figure out how. But if we don’t figure out how and redirect resources and staff to that then nothing will change.
Jul 30th, 2007
ken
John – I don’t think you can generalise completely in some cases it is just not possible not to intervene, but as a matter of principle I do agree that keeping children in their home and or familair situations is preefreable.
That is in fact what happended in my time as the yeasr passed. Staying wiht even a dysfucntional family is probalbe betetr than ebing launched intot a system, although some kids thrived but not many. My experince is limited to inner sydney, refern, waterloo the Cross etc
The key is support in the home and I dont think that is happening now as much as it used to.
I agree the NT thing is hard to see as particualy useful, althouhg you probably wont agree, but I think it is a disaster having thsoe settlemtns out there in the first place.
Jul 31st, 2007
CORAL
ken:
Ditto to posts #41 and #47.
I too am tired of being treated like a moron by psychologically disturbed people.
But I will concede that Marilyn is correct about rape cases. While John Howard was conducting an expensive media campaign against rape, Queensland courts continued letting rapists off in droves.
The social worker friend I’ve mentioned a couple of times told me a lot of the foster homes are no good either.
She said she’s found kids starving in some of those situations, and that a lot of the foster parents are only in it for the money, and that many are poor welfare recipients.
My friend is currently working as a Parent Aide – no doubt helping children stay with their parents, where possible.
Over the years, I’ve known 3 men whose mothers deserted their families to pursue greener personal pastures. When I’ve seen the effects it has had on their sons’ lives and relationships, I think those women should be given a jail term.
Assimilation in the case of Aboriginal children and their families has a lot of plusses going for it.
There are currently excellent equal employment opportunities in nursing, and driving buses for Queensland Transport. The nursing home I volunteer in has some excellent nurses from the Torres Strait.
Jul 31st, 2007
The Piping Shrike
I think the whole emotional, anecdotal tone of this thread is unhelpful and is no basis to discuss public policy. Unfortunately it reflects the report that led to the NT intervention which is also based on anecdotal evidence rather than firm statistical data.
Surely the collation of such evidence should be the first priority for determining public policy rather than relying on our own personal (and therefore limited) experience.
Jul 31st, 2007
CORAL
The value of anecdotal evidence ought not to be underestimated.
It sometimes has a higher value than statistics – which can be fudged, or fail to reveal important peripheral and underlying factors.
I am always interested to read of other people’s opinions and experiences.
Aug 1st, 2007
The Piping Shrike
So am I, but not if that is your sole basis for an intervention that will impact the lives of many people. Are anecdotes enough evidence for you to claim that a community is abusing its children? Because it is not for me. It is a serious charge and should be based on more than hearsay.
The whole problem with the entire disgraceful intervention in the NT is how little proof people need before they jump to the conclusions they have. The NT report’s authors say that there is no conclusive statistical evidence of the extent of child abuse, but still claimed there was an epidemic of it.
Does the hurt that would cause indigenous parents if those claims were not true not bother you at all?
Aug 1st, 2007
ken
Interesting set of observations PS. Perhasp you could identify for us which part of the 40,000 year aborginal history you find acceptable adn which you dont? Seeing all their history is based on oral interpreation and handed down verbally. Or perhasp there is some more recnet policy, stolen generation?, mabo?, where verbal evidence is OK.
Maybe you could point to the statistics you’d like to see to substantiate the many (and as even Senator Bartlett has Pointed out) and varied sources of evidnce of dysfunction and abuse in these communities.
Perhasp youd like to see confirmed child abuse notifications? hmm given there no welfare offices or officers, or anyone to report abuse to in the bulk of these communities thats going to be interesting. Perhasp hospital admissions would satisfy you objective mind? hmm no hospitals. Ah yes of course polcie records – unfortunately police dont record anything. Perhaps the feral abacus can help out – although I think he’s still recovering from the textual lashing he recvied on another thread.
I do agree with you in relation ot the intervention, perhasp disgraceful is too unforgiving, as no one will probably suffer as a result – timed to appear to be doing something in an election year is more like it.
Aug 1st, 2007
The Piping Shrike
Ken if you do not see why you need proper evidence before you accuse a community of abusing their children I suggest you look at the experience of the women of Mutitjulu who were at the centre of a child abuse smear by Lateline last year.
http://www.kooriweb.org/foley/news/2006/september/smh16sep06.html
Is that anecdotal enough for you?
Aug 1st, 2007
The Feral Abacus
Piping Shrike, most management decisions are – of necessity – made on the basis of incomplete information. Situations often arise that are of such urgency that they demand action before the complete picture can be discerned.
Then there are the pragmatics of managing upwards. In the public service, that may mean cobbling an agenda onto a vaguely-related high-profile issue in order to gain political support for actions that would otherwise never happen.
I’m sure that upper level managers have been waiting for years for their Minister to show some interest in the problems in these communities. Unfortunately it has taken the paedophilia bogeyman (& the election) to gain the Minister’s attention.
While I think many of us are unhappy with the Federal govt’s rhetoric and modus operandi on this issue, there is a broad consensus that some indigenous communities are deeply troubled, and that there are child welfare issues that need to be addressed. As I have stated previously, delaying action for yet another a year or two while studies are conducted to confirm this would be counter-productive.
I agree with you that people are being needlessly smeared. But I think that the best response is to put pressure on the Federal govt to cease its broad-brush portrayals, while at the same time acknowledging that problems do exist. It doesn’t really matter whether or not the overall rates of abuse are higher or lower than in the broader community; the fact is that there are some serious instances of abuse, and these communities haven’t received the level of support that they need to deal with those cases.
Aug 2nd, 2007
The Piping Shrike
Sorry but let’s just get this clear how child abuse is normally dealt with. If there is a suspicion of such a case, say raised by a teacher, then investigations are carried out to prove conclusively one way or other whether it is true. If that evidence has been established, then action is taken to protect the child. The reason why firm evidence is needed is that such action will over-ride the rights of the parents and before that is done they deserve, as a citizen with rights, for firm evidence to be established.
But of course here we are talking about indigenous parents, so they don’t have such rights. Firm evidence is not necessary because according to you, feral abacus, it would simply take too long. Anecdotes and hearsay are apparently enough for indigenous communities. Any idea why the rest of the world thinks Australia’s treatment of its indigenous population (including this latest episode) is a disgrace?
Aug 2nd, 2007
CORAL
The Piping Shrike:
New rules were brought in for teachers and parent volunteers in schools relating to the abuse (not just sexual abuse) of children in 1999.
I attended the session for parent volunteers. I might add only 3 people turned up – a social worker friend, a teacher who was also a parent, and me.
I had a second go at reporting the fact that a male paedophile was working in the school tuckshop. Still nothing changed.
When I spoke with my son’s very experienced teacher about the reporting of abuse, she said kids came to school telling all sorts of lies in order to get attention.
We can’t get good men into teaching because of the many false accusations being made, in addition to low pay.
Most teachers (male or female) have long been afraid of hugging a distressed child, or even putting a hand on his/her shoulder.
This is not to say that schools don’t have paedophiles among their teachers. The local primary school has had at least 3 in the last 20 years, and those are just the ones I’ve known about.
Someone once letterboxed the entire neighbourhood about another creep in the high school, but still nothing was done. My sons had already come home and told me themselves what he was doing years before.
I don’t mean to be insulting, but you need to get a reality check on what really goes on.
The statistics are small because:
kids are scared; kids are sometimes liars; and a lot of adults have yellow stripes running up their backs when it comes to doing anything about it.
Aug 2nd, 2007
ken
PS – can you point out where I said you don’t need any statistical evidence to establish a public policy position. What i said was hwo would you propose to collect it, and what form shouild it take, by implication you then need systems, resources and services to collect it.
Of course your scenario in 59 is accurate in nice little middel class urban australia, with forms, and systems, and socila wokers and evidnce gathering techniques, corts, foster families, periods of remand, health workers and the like, god dear shrieker some of us have actually done it.
How would yopu propose the same be established in remote australia? None of this should be assumed to imply approval of what is happening in remote austrlai, you and I simply dont know, and can only comment from afar
Aug 2nd, 2007
The Piping Shrike
Neither of you have said anything to support the rights of indigenous parents over their children – which is kind of a sensitive issue for historical reasons. Coral your distorted account of the ‘reality’ of dealing with this issue in Australian schools just highlights the dangers of relying on one person’s experience for public policy.
Aug 2nd, 2007
John Tracey
Coral,
How did yo know there was a paedophile in the tuckshop? How did you know it was “a fact”?
Did you have evidence of this fact and present it to the authorities?
Or did you just whinge to the authorities because you heard that there was a paedophile, from someone you respected so it must be a fact?
Did they ignore you because they condone paedophilia, or because there was no evidence?
Did the workshop (with the 3 attendees) cover issues such as ways to gather evidence and protocols to protect innocent people from false allegation?
Or did you just chat and share your stories about paedophiles?
Do you think the federal government should take over the management of tuckshops to protect children?
Aug 2nd, 2007
The Feral Abacus
Piping Shrike, you insist that the Federal Govt’s intervention is invalid due to an absence of compelling evidence.
Consider a hypothetical scenario. Imagine that health professionals had conducted a comprehensive census of remote communities, where they had found undeniable evidence of high levels of child abuse. In such a hypothetical case, would you consider Federal Govt intervention – similar to that currently being implemented – to be justified?
Aug 2nd, 2007
The Piping Shrike
If you are asking if there is conclusive evidence of any child abuse should an authority intervene, of course. Who wouldn’t? Arrests should be made and if the evidence is sufficient, lock them up. Whether it was the federal or NT authorities, I don’t care, although I’m sure the NT has police that can handle this sort of thing. It would be the same as any child abuse case anywhere in the country. What’s the difference?
The difference here of course is that irrespective of whether it is a white miner or a member of the indigenous community that is the offender, the debate has turned into that eternal Australian preoccupation, what is wrong with the way indigenous people conduct themselves.
Aug 3rd, 2007
CORAL
John Tracey:
I knew this person, and believed the likelihood of an attack on one of the older girls in the school toilets to be high.
The person had come here from NZ and was not an Australian citizen. Among other things, he was a sociopath, who also did drugs.
The general attitude of school staff was to bury their heads in the sand, in the hope the problem would go away.
The man could also make sandwiches at an unbelievable pace. He operated on a “high” due to his many addictions.
I found the tone of most of your questions insulting, and therefore not worth answering.
A retired principal I know had to deal with a parent selling drugs from his tuckshop phone.
At one time, our local primary school barely avoided an investigation by the CJC over a certain issue. I am told much worse things go on in other schools.
We live in a very corrupt society where almost anything goes.
Aug 3rd, 2007
ken
No adult has any right at all irrespective of any supposed culture to abuse a child. This thread should be closed to child abuse apologists
Aug 3rd, 2007
CORAL
Go, ken!!!!
In Australia, we have laws which relate to adults having sex with underage minors. Too bad these laws are sometimes not upheld.
I don’t care what colour people are or what their excuse is. They MAY NOT have sex with 12 year old girls – or any female child under 16 – or any male child under 18.
We don’t give 16 year olds the vote in order to lower the sexual age of consent either.
Aug 3rd, 2007
The Piping Shrike
… and those who can’t read.
Aug 3rd, 2007
The Feral Abacus
Piping Shrike, thanks for your reply at #65. I agree with each of the points you make, and I think your comment that
is an important one.
However, the child abuse ‘emergency’ has two levels – the individual and the community – and I’m not sure that you are differentiating between.
Dealing with individuals who are alleged child abusers is straighforward enough, with the application of well-established evidentiary tests. This process should occur whenever allegations are made, and will presumably be part of the current intervention.
But the intervention is also being applied at the community level, and involves many measures that fall outside the province of policing and judiciary. The government justifies the intervention with claims of high levels of child abuse in remote communities, implying that prevailing social conditions are to blame.
Are you saying that before community intervention can occur, you want to see the same level of proof that is demanded for punishing individual offenders? If so, I would disagree. A very high level of proof is expected in the legal process because the consequences are deprivation of freedom. Even though the intervention in its current form has many punitive aspects, it is not nearly as oppressive as a custodial sentence, so a lesser level of proof/evidence is applicable.
My issue is not with intervention per se, but with the nature of the intervention and with many of the attitudes that have accompanied it. I’d like to see the punitive aspects removed, and I’d like to see the communities deciding for themselves what form the intervention should take.
Just as a general aside, I’ve seen a lot written lately about alcohol in remote communities, but very little about solvent abuse. Surely its still a problem?
Aug 3rd, 2007
John Tracey
Coral, A simple question to you and Mal brough. Have you any evidence?
A pretty crucial point.
I dont mean evidence of drug use (do you have evidence?) or of fast sandwich making.
Simply frothing at the mouth about hypothetical problems is most dangerous, not just for the lives of innocent people who may be accused but because it is a total distraction from the real issues of protecting kids and substantiating allegations against perpetrators.
WOLF! WOLF!
The real risk, usually direct family members not tuckshop workers are protected by this facade of public outrage against Aborigines and tuck shop workers. They go under the radar because nobody is looking at where the real problem is. Same thing with “stranger danger” – making kids scared of the unknown but not equipping them at all to deal with family assault.
Brough has a political reason to obscure the truth with allegations based on gossip. What is your motivation?
Aug 3rd, 2007
The Piping Shrike
Feral abacus,
Many thanks for returning this to a serious level that this debate deserves. You are right that this debate is operating at two levels, the individual cases of child abuse and the community response, but it is precisely the lack of differentiation between the two I object to. That was what triggered my immediate response to the announcement to ask that if this was purely about child abuse then why not just make the arrests on the evidence as a normal police operation. Instead this emotive issue was used to push through another agenda, the government’s wish to appear to act for electoral purposes and redraw the framework for indigenous relations as seen by its scrapping of the CDEP.
The problem is, the government was not the only one doing it. Looking at the original NT report, it is an excellent example of how those who profess to be on the side of the indigenous communities were using anecdotal evidence of child abuse as a means of requesting more social work intervention and funding. It is why the bulk of the report is taken up with the measures, while the report admits that establishing firm evidence is secondary. The way child abuse is now being used as a basis from both the left and the right to relate to the indigenous communities was best summed up, I thought, by the comments of a resident of Yuendumu who noted that every time they wanted to talk to the authorities about getting proper services, they seemed ‘obsessed’ with child abuse.
By demanding that this be treated as a real child abuse issue, i.e. requesting that firm evidence be established (as with any case for non-indigenous people) I was hoping to clarify the two issues (although clearly not that successfully).
Aug 3rd, 2007
paul walter
Note the thread is still bubbling away and for what its worth offer my compliments to Piping Shrike for a rationally, calmly argued position.
Understand where FA is coming from but cannot bring myself to beleive that the Federal Government is motivated by anything but the basest of motives- pandering to darker instincts, fomenting and then predating parasitically off resultant sexual hysteria. The government propagandists understand that some people, unaccountably it seems, fixate obsessively on sexual comings and goings exclusively; they fail to even notice so many other things that go on life that are tragic or help create tragedy.
Fancy equivalencing the behaviour of courting teenagers, with “paedophilia”, for example.
Any of you see a report on, I think, 7.30 Report early this week about the callous disruption to a NT community that was running quite well, raising goats; farming and the like and totally disrupted by an utterly unheeding Brough. Running roughshod through this community in pursuit of his puritanical and sadistic penny-pinching agenda he happily created such uncetainty as to the future for these people was palpable. A lot like W………s, only worse.
Yet not a single comment anywhere on the 7.30 Report segment and the piteous anxiety Brough’s delinquent interference was causing.
Aug 3rd, 2007
The Feral Abacus
Piping Shrike & paul walter – thankyou both for your acknowledgements; much appreciated!
Piping Shrike – Although I felt that our positions were not far apart, I hadn’t realized the extent to which you were playing Devil’s Advocate.
It might not be obvious from his comments, but ken is your ally. As far as I’m concerned, he’s [mostly] walking on the side of the angels. Personally, I appreciate his input for the hands-on perspective that he brings, and for the pragmatism of his reality checks.
paul walter – always good to speak to you as one Adelaide boy to another. Yes, I’d agree that Brough et al’s motives are highly suspect, but – as Senator B has proposed – this may be an opportunity for something positive to happen. Just a matter of pushing the right electoral buttons – we may not have much influence as mere citizens, but let’s make the most of what little power we have.
Like you, I’m more than concerned that consensual sex between underage minors seems to have become the main focus of investigation by police in remote communities. If that’s the way it’s going to be, lets have AFP action in Elizabeth & Noarulunga & Ipswich & the Western Suburbs of Sydney. If we are going to deem that 16 & 17 year old boys having consensual sex with 14 & 15 year old girls is a major problem, let’s not pretend that it is race-related, and let’s also not pretend that it’s some form of paedophilia.
Instead, let’s recognise that some proportion of the arresting officers were guilty of the same offence when they were in their youth: must be awkward for all parties concerned.
Aug 4th, 2007
CORAL
Yes, JT, I had evidence. Yes, I’ve also witnessed the phenomenally fast sandwich making and at least 4 addictions.
I’ve also spoken with the man’s sister who was also a tuckshop worker.
As a child, he’d tried twice to kill his own sister, and was sent to live with other relatives for her protection.
Since none of the adults would act, I had no alternative but to tell my son to go back to school and warn off as many of the girls as possible.
Unfortunately, the man took up with a beautiful, long-haired blonde woman who had a 12-year-old daughter who looked the same.
I wasn’t surprised when someone letterboxed the whole neighbourhood about the high school teacher.
The only time I’ve known a school principal to act in relation to a paedophilic teacher was after he was confronted by a mob of angry parents who were tired of having legitimate concerns dismissed.
People want statistics??? What a joke!!!
I have never met Mal Brough and take no responsibility for his motives, thoughts or actions.
I find your attitude to be very insulting and disrespectful.
Aug 4th, 2007
Donna
Paul
I saw that program. A number of women were gaining skills in sheet metal work I believe. I think the intention was to build a metal work industry for the community, because trades are rare in this isolated part of the world, but trades people are needed just the same.
The skills development program is now being removed from the community and has pretty much undermined their ability to build this industry and improve the community economy.
There was also another Indigenous community whose economy was largely based on making a low-alcohol brew derived from yam or some sort of fruit or vegetable. This community did not have an alcohol abuse issue. However, generic policies on alcohol licensing in Indigenous communities would also undermine this individual community’s economy.
Regarding Coral’s above post, I don’t want to contribute towards off-topic issues, but I think it’s pretty indicative of the rubbish teachers’ have to cope with and why it’s hard to attract males to the profession.
Aug 4th, 2007
paul walter
Just tell me why,
Donna?
How does Mal Brough gain such perverse enjoyment from harming good people who he has never met and knows nothing of?
Aug 4th, 2007
CORAL
Donna:
Thanks very much for confirming the point I was trying to make.
Why deal with paedophiles, when you can kick the whistleblowers …. and worse still …. punish the victims instead?
Why close the barn door even after the horse has got his bolt in?
BTW I mentioned the difficulty of getting male teachers at post #60.
Not all allegations are false. They need to be appropriately investigated.
Aug 5th, 2007
Donna
Paul
I don’t get them either. They run the country like ruthless corporate businessmen with no awareness of social issues.
However, if I was to give Mal Brough the benefit of the doubt, I’d say that it’s early days yet and possibly there are new policies that need to be smoothed out for unforseen consequences, such as the ones we’ve already mentioned.
I also got the impression that during the program, the footage of Mal Brough answering questions was old footage. It didn’t come across as Brough being interviewed specifically for the program and answering questions directly related to Robinson River Community. So possibly he’s unaware how his new policies will impact adversely on them.
But the synic in me believes that he disregard this information anyway, because the purpose of this Government is to further reducing welfare, not just for Indigenous communities, but for non-Indigenous communities as well, and at the same time falsely represent themselves as rescuing Indigenous communities from themselves.
It’s also an election year, and unfortunately, the Liberals are trying to get the One Nation voters back on their side.
Aug 5th, 2007
Donna
Coral
Don’t know what you’re going on about. However, if a student or a student’s parent makes a complaint that they or their child has been treated inappropriately by a teacher or volunteer, the matter will be investigated by the school and the police.
An individual not related to the case who inappropriately involves themself based on hearsay does not make them a ‘whistleblower’. It might just make them a malicious gossip.
Aug 5th, 2007
John Tracey
Coral,
Sorry if you felt insulted, that was not my intention. You are correct that I do not respect what you are saying though.
The pifalls of crying WOLF!
http://www.news.com.au/sundaymail/story/0,23739,22192627-5003402,00.html
Child abuse is perhaps one of the most emotional of all subjects to discuss. Even prisoners have a strong moral position on “rock spiders”. Revulsion at child abuse is a universal emotional reaction that Brough and Howard are tickling for political reasons. Your own personal offence at this discussion shows how emotion can drown out realistic strategies to deal with the problem. If you were serious about nailing your new zealender, multiple drug addict, child killer, sandwhich making psychopath – you would do better bu presenting evidence of abuse rather than a charachter assassination of the broadest proportions in the hope that the sheer weight of your moral outrage might achieve something.
Hysterical moral outrage is the biggest obstacle to realistic programs to tackle real child abuse.
It is a distraction from the real job.
I know nothing of this New Zealander but on the basis of your words alone my prejudice is that he has been innocently slandered by malicious gossip the same way Mutijulu was.
Aug 5th, 2007
ken
Never could trust those New Zealanders..
I’ll make just one more comment to assist in the education of those who know everything about child abuse – (Donna should know this as I bet she’s been to an in-service on it) – the major primary evidence of child sexual abuse comes from he mouth of the child and with a trained and untainted questioner – medical evidence is rarely accurate and almost always subject to legal debate, behavioural evidence is only ever secondary and can be interpreted in any number of ways and is only ever used as indictors and requires usual disclosure corroboration.
Sex between teenagers is not child abuse, just ongoing examples of the breakdown of social – developmental appropriateness. The fact that many of us may have indulged in our youth neither make sit right or wrong but merely shows that the exploration of the limits of development and socially appropriate behaviour are normal aspects of development. Where it becomes an entrenched norm and unrelated to such development is the precursor of social decay and descent to animalism – this I do not approve of – but is a separate issue to child abuse.
The focus of all child sexual abuse investigation is on the needs and future of the child – offenders are basically ignored by the welfare system.
There is no doubt the intervention in NT is based on some form of ultra – moral Christian retentive conservatism and a good dose of political pragmatism – PS far from being calm and rational Paul is trying to find ways, to discredit something that he sees as wrong, and by doing so getting into waters out of his depth rather than be calm and pragmatic and accept – well we know its a crock but how can we get some benefit from this.
Aug 6th, 2007
Donna
Ken
I’d hardly say Paul is being far from calm.
I think it’s a case of he took you to task regarding your own far from calm comments, and now you are attempting to discredit him as a pay back.
Aug 7th, 2007
paul walter
Donna, am moved to a feeling of great magnitude and import. Can only quote from Shakepeare at such a time.
Merchant of Venice, right at the end:
“A Daniel come to judgement! yea, a Daniel!
Oh wise young judge, how I do honour thee”.
Those of the cogniscinti will recognise how closely in tone and nature the speaker of these words resembles a certain loiterer adjunct of these self- same threads, who has enviously bespattered the good name of wiser souls of gentler repute.
Aug 8th, 2007
ken
PS meant Piping Shrike not Paul, my puncutation error, at least I alwasy acknowldeg error or recognise the vailidity of other points of view unlike others Donna.
While I may criticise PW, particualrly when I disagree and when he descends to eitehr excessive shrieking with no factual basis or intellectual snobbery as above , but quite often i agree with him
Aug 8th, 2007
CORAL
Ken:
I too am tired of insulting supporters of paedophiles whom they’ve never met, and those who say they are teachers, but leave a person in serious doubt.
Moral outrage is the result of inaction. The biggest obstacle to programs is inaction.
Yes, we are in a period of social decay and descent into animalism, but I think there is a definite connection between that and the child sexual abuse problem.
Whatever is socially accepted (or ignored) is encouraged.
Aug 8th, 2007
John Tracey
Coral, you may well feel you are descending into “animalism” but if you are serious about avoiding offence then you should restrict this assesment to yourself.
Your new stage of moral outrage, from personal slander to gross exagerations, generalisations and untruths may well justify Mal Brough, the RSPCA or the anti N.Z. league, but it is irrelevent to dealing with child abuse.
Get off your high horse before someone else with moral kneejerkism might accuse you accuse you of molesting it, given the obvious “fact” of your obsession with animalism.
What is animalism?
Is it animism, as in the connectedness of all species in Aboriginal culture?
Is it beastiality, as in unfounded and malicious allegations some might make of you and your high horse?
Is it like vegetarianism, but you only eat meat?
Can you explain how this “animalism” manifests in Aboriginal communities?
Coral, if you are really tired of insulting people as you say, the solution is obvious. Don’t do it!
Aug 8th, 2007
paul walter
Firstly, Ken, it is true that we sometimes agree. Glad to hear it was only The Piping Shrike you were trying to head high; admire your ethics the more for this sharing.
Secondly, JT- excellent refutation.
How does offending party know we are paedophiles when SHE has never MET us??
A slap round the despicable face, for someone who calls people who despise paedophilia and oppose the trivialisation or exploitation of it for
base political or media sensationalist motives, paedophiles:
In effect people like her cry wolf and draw attention away from real problems, hence ensuring even more harm is done in the real world.
You, my nasty female friend, are more a sympathiser of paedophilia and paedophiles than we could ever be.
Aug 8th, 2007
Donna
Ken
Sorry, but I still think you go a bit too hard on people at times when I believe you know better.
Coral
Better be careful what you say about people at your son’s school. If someone from you son’s school was to read your posts, they might pass them on to the person being libelled. And that person may litigate.
Aug 8th, 2007
ken
Donna – your right
Paul – dammed by your faint praise – I love it
Aug 9th, 2007
CORAL
Paul Walter and John Tracey:
What a pair of despicable creeps! Other readers will see you for what you are without any help from me. Regular readers will be well aware of who supports paedophilia and who doesn’t.
If either of you knew how to read, you would know that I haven’t called anyone contributing to this thread a paedophile.
I said: “insulting SUPPORTERS of paedophiles”. Don’t you know what that means?
Donna:
I don’t make libellous comments about other people. The truth isn’t libel.
Indigenous Women Unite!!!
Lock up your daughters and keep an axe handle at the ready. When you need to use it, AIM LOW!!!
Aug 9th, 2007
Donna
Paul
Thank you for your kind words. I find much wisdom in yours, JT’s, and Ken’s comments as well.
Ken
Well how about easing up?
Aug 9th, 2007
ken
Donna – thanks, we don’t want this blog to be toooo much more of a boring one sided view of the world do we.
Aug 10th, 2007
Donna
You’re right Ken
That’s why it’s important not to silence Marilyn and Piping Shrike.
Their is a lot of wisdom in their words.
Aug 10th, 2007
paul walter
Am humbled. Donna, much wisdom in yours, too.
Ken, etc, will promise hard to try not to be naughty again. Even you ARE horrible to me, I should not be nasty, too.
Even Coral.
The lofty and wise Feral Abacas once said in an echo-y voice from a distance above and beyond, that I should not fight with my virtual ’sister’.
And we ARE on SUCH a long journey…
Aug 11th, 2007
The Feral Abacus
paul walter – would that have been when I was in one of these moods?
Aug 15th, 2007
paul walter
It was her fault, not mine. Remember, I had witnesses. Nice bloke having a rough trot…Everyone knows the truth will out one day.
It was the devil made me do it…… SKANK!!
Aug 15th, 2007