A testing time for migrant citizens
On 17th November, the community consultation period finished on the government’s discussion paper on the possibility of introducing a citizenship test. Whilst I suspected the whole thing was just a charade leading to a decision that had already been made, a tiny bit of me did hope that it was a genuine attempt to engage in public debate on an important issue. However, just over three weeks later, the announcement has come that the government has decided to introduce a citizenship test. It will require applicants to have a basic understanding of English and pass a computerised test of their knowledge of the Australian way of life and history. They will also have to sign a commitment to Australia’s values and way of life.
The Prime Minister says the changes are designed to remove divisions in Australian society.
“This is a test that affirms the desirability of more fully integrating newcomers into the mainstream of Australian society,” he said. “This is about cohesion and integration. It’s not about discrimination and exclusion.
It’s hard to know how a test could not be about exclusion. I presume the people that fail it are going to be excluded from citizenship.
I agree with Liberal MP Petro Georgiou’s comment that “the upshot may very well be that successful settlement of immigrants is undermined rather than enhanced”.
About the only way you could credibly say any new test of Australia’s history and way of life isn’t discriminatory is if you could demonstrate that virtually all Australian born people could pass it.
Discouraging people from becoming citizens doesn’t make them go away. You have to already be a permanent resident for years before you can apply. If the government genuinely wants to ensure better integration of different groups in our community, it is too late to wait until people have already been living here for years.
The time to encourage knowledge about Australia and build cohesion and integration is when people first arrive in Australia, not after they have already been here for years as permanent residents.
At a time when the government is trying to get hundreds of thousands of people each year to migrate here from all corners of the globe to fill our labour market shortages, it is against our national interest to then put a discriminatory barrier in the way of people who want to be full members of the Australian community.
Having listened to the views of many migrants as part of developing a response to the discussion paper, I think there is a very strong chance indeed that this new test will be divisive. Not that this will concern the Prime Minister, whose record shows he is quite happy to divide the community if the controversy generates votes for him. There is no evidence of any problem with our current citizenship requirements. It is hard to see how this is anything other than a divisive election year ploy for votes, feeding a myth and playing on fears about non-existent problems with migrants’ loyalty to Australia.
Amongst those who are currently most likely to live here for years without becoming citizens are people from the UK and New Zealand. I don’t have any great problem with them doing this (although I do think longstanding residents who are British citizens shouldn’t be able to vote), but making it harder for other permanent residents to become citizens is hardly going to enhance cohesion and integration. If anything, it will increase alienation, and a sense amongst migrants – especially from non-English speaking backgrounds – that they are viewed with suspicion by the government.
It will provide cover for the Muslim bashers to make their false allegations that Muslims aren’t, won’t or can’t be part of Australian society. It will also provide the government with lots of easy political points, with anyone criticising the test no doubt being accused of not supporting Australian values, opposing integration or being against having English as the national language.
This decision will probably have little impact on the number of migrants who end up becoming citizens, as I don’t think it is designed to achieve that. Combined with other measures of lengthening the time people must live here before they can apply, it will probably mean a small number of people who would otherwise have migrated here will now go elsewhere. As these will be mainly highly skilled people who have a number of options to choose from, I can’t see how it helps Australia. This action by the government is mostly about sending political messages and shaping public attitudes towards migrants. Given that migration has been and will continue to be a fundamental part of a strong future for Australia, I really can’t see how it has any long-term benefit to the country to feed false fears about migrants.
ELSEWHERE: Posts on GrodsCorp, Catallaxy, Blogocracy, Larvatus Prodeo, John the Analyst and Bannerman. Also some insights at Human Behaviour from someone awaiting permanent residenecy.
60 Comments, Comment or Ping
Yobbo
I agree Andrew. This test should instead be applied to those who wish to become permanent residents.
Not being able to speak English is the single biggest problem that could face any potential migrant.
There’s absolutely no reason why we shouldn’t prefer English-speakers over non-English speakers.
Dec 12th, 2006
David Jackmanson
Ha! Try working in a call centre, Yobbo, like I did, where you take 600 calls a day for directory assistance.
If we are going to get rid of people who can’t speak English clearly, about half the ‘white’, native born people in this country are out of here!
Dec 12th, 2006
philip travers
Personal experience leads me in all sorts of directions about this,which, doesnt make Howard look that much better to me.In fact,the only credible basis for it is the help it may be for those who come here.I must say ,however,a drunk thick accent arouses a lot of anger in me,and there are many newly arrive who go down the pisspot road.I dont want to be tedious about this,I find self important creeps be they immigrants or been here much longer hard to accept..it is alright having thoughtful experience related,often they come with a package of the meaningless.This is a short comment.
Dec 12th, 2006
The Editor
I’d love to see how many politicians and prominent Australians could pass the proposed quiz first time around without studying.
Dec 12th, 2006
Oz
Was thinking the same thing Editor. I can just imagine a Chaser skit when the test is released where they test people and many people get questions wrong.
It may not be of long term benefit but it is easy political point scoring. Labor may raise concerns but in the end once instituted it will be kept by both sides. It just reinforces people’s assumptions and stereotypes rather than addressing problems such as a lack of resources for English classes for new migrants and refugees.
Dec 12th, 2006
Gadget
I think it is a good idea to have a values and language test for incoming migrants, refugees and refuse.
I mean, lets face it, we all know that the first thing any new migrant group does is to try to change the culture of their surroundings. And it seems that Australia is not immune. Even though we have the most stable, easy-going culture for miles around.
Granted -new cultural immigrants find it necessary to force their way into our cultrue, which entails adjustments to that culture- but that is no licence for them to do their best to totally proscribe what it is our culture should be.
After all, they lust for what we have. So, make them understand it fully, make them converse if fully, and make them accept it fully. Otherwise, there is no point them coming here, is there.
Dec 12th, 2006
Lynette2
How wrong answers will mean a fail?
I’m an ordinary white Aussie but I’m pretty sure I’d fail on John Howard’s understanding of mateship, equality between men and women, freedom of speech and probably the rule of law.
Also any questions on cricket.
Dec 12th, 2006
Alan
Migrants don’t need tests. They need help to ensure that they’re not isolated in Australian society. They need help to understand their rights and responsiblilities.
But of course this help would involve governments spending money on education. Its much cheaper to gain political capital by appearing to be restrictive on ‘undesirables’ by instituting a test.
Dec 12th, 2006
Alan
…and I wonder if ‘business migrants’ bringing millions of dollars to Australia will have to take the test, and what will happen if they fail it? Will they be excluded?
Dec 12th, 2006
Oz
Gadget, I don’t see a problem with migrants coming and contributing to the continual evolution of a culture. Culture isn’t a monolithic bloc that stays the same forever.
Australian culture has been influenced by multiple waves of migration, for the better I would say. It will continue to change and evolve because of the globalised nature of society.
Dec 12th, 2006
Helga
I strongly believe that any immigrant should only be required to show a desire to learn and work with whichever community they find themselves in.
A test is grossly unfair; especially one which lauds some sort of national identity in a country that is entirely made up of migrants. After all- even the original inhabitants migrated here thousands of years ago.
Surely we should be celebrating our mixed identity- learning from our differences and gaining a better knowledge of other cultures to prevent us from becoming a fascist nation of bigots.
Dec 12th, 2006
CORAL
We really do need migrants to be more literate. The nursing home seems to be hiring more Asian and European nurses, kitchenhands, cleaners and launderers.
Some have a very poor understanding of English. Some cannot read, or speak in a way that can be clearly understood.
This can have effects ranging from the inconvenient to the life-threatening, especially in such a busy facility.
Also, many elderly residents have severe hearing and cognitive impairments which are certainly not helped by the illiteracy of some of their carers.
Although I have a good understanding of medical terminology and am familiar with a lot of medicines, there is a registered nurse with whom I find communication extremely difficult. For most people, I think it would be impossible.
We must look to the safety issues involved here.
I hasten to add that most of the migrants are excellent workers. Some are personal friends.
Dec 12th, 2006
Yobbo
David:
1. we are not “getting rid” of anyone.
2. I suppose those callers to the call centre would have been easier for you to understand if they spoke to you in Mandarin or Urdu?
Unlike some people I don’t need to work in a call centre to understand a basic concept like language.
Dec 12th, 2006
David Jackmanson
Unlike some people I don’t need to work in a call centre to understand a basic concept like language.
Unlike which people? Because I certainly didn’t claim that…
But I have talked to thousands and thousands of ‘white’ people, supposedly with English as a first language, and some of them can’t commuinicate in it either. So if speaking clear English is so important, why not force them to learn it as well?
I’m tired of smug superiority from people who are comfortably here in Australia, when their standards are lower than the same standards they would like to set for migrants.
A better idea would be for all Australians to learn two foreign languages at school, so we wouldn’t be so likely to be flustered by the fact that not everyone in the world speaks English.
Apart from anything else, that would give us the high moral ground when demanding that others learn English, instead of looking like arrogant, provincial snobs.
Dec 12th, 2006
Paul Walter
It is not so much legislation to a purpose but ugly electioneering passed off under the dignifying label of “legislation”
It’s purpose is an appeal to Australian xenophobia, with an election upcoming, far more than as a practical response to any real problem.
In short, cheap electioneering payed for taxpayers unable to see it for the evil it is. I really want to throw up, but already have done so, after the scapegoating of immigrants and Aborigines earlier this year.
Even the late Josef Goebbels must be blushing, in his grave, at the sheer stale crassness and slovenly audacity of these sorts of stunts.
Last week the ABC and Hicks; next week maybe the unemployed, or refugees- any one unable or not allowed to fight back and misunderstood enough by an misinformed public, to be harvested on the yield of redneck fear and anxiety for votes.
Dec 12th, 2006
Yobbo
Why are you playing the race card?
How do you even know the people you spoke English to on the telephone are white?
The only arrogant snob here is you. Nobody is demanding the whole world learn English, just those who wish to migrate to Australia, an English speaking country.
Dec 12th, 2006
Yobbo
“to be harvested on the yield of redneck fear and anxiety for votes.”
Why are you so bigoted against poor rural people?
I’m a redneck and I bet you $1000 I have a higher IQ than you. Andrew can administer the test if you like.
Dec 12th, 2006
Paul Walter
You are daft, Yobbo!
I never said the slightest thing about, “poor rural people”!
On what basis do you connect my remarks about the unconsciousness of Australian society at large to, “poor rural people”
Are you talking about Hansonists? Are ALL Hansonists “rural” or “rednecks”?
Once I’ve finished a good belly laugh, “please explain” how this evocation that is solely of you own imagining, of “poor rural people” equating exclusively to “rednecks”; eg ( presumably ), irrational bigots has evolved, independent of ANY outside stimulus.
Dec 12th, 2006
Yobbo
You are the one who used the term redneck, not me.
Redneck is a slur aimed at poor rural people.
If you are referring to a broader group of people as “rednecks”, then it is only as a slur to imply they are just as stupid as poor rural people.
Why don’t you just call them Howard’s Suburb Niggers instead?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=redneck
Dec 12th, 2006
O Ekdikitis
Yobbo,
If you don’t like this multiracial, multilingual, multicultural society we have built here, then why don’t you go back to your own country instead of trying to enforce a narrow set of arbitrary ‘Australian Values’, which incidentally can be found in societies on every corner of the earth, & which aren’t always practiced even by Australia’s current citizens nor its Government? Furthermore, trying to impose a particular language isn’t very different from trying to impose a particular religion or allegiance to a particular football team. How is your short stay on earth negatively affected by the successfull migrant businessman down the road not knowing who Flinders was?
CORAL,
The definition of illiteracy is not “one who does not speak nor understand English”.
Dec 13th, 2006
Kaye Bernard
I reckon Yobbo and Paul Walter gave a very good real life example, about the differences in interpretation of words in English eg Redneck, as to why there are flaws in applying an English test to migrants in order for them to gain citizenship.
Once the flawed test is applied then the issue of misuse by those administering the test can present itself as it did during the application of the dictation test.
Dec 13th, 2006
David Jackmanson
How do you even know the people you spoke English to on the telephone are white?
Because of their accents. They were clearly people who grew up in a white/Anglo part of society with Australian English as a first languange.
Take 600,000 (yes, six hundred thousand) calls over nine months and you will get pretty good at classifying even minor differences in accent.
Many couldn’t be bothered speaking clearly enough to make themselves understood, probably because of the same arrogance that makes people think anyone coming to ‘our’ country should learn English.
There were also clearly middle-aged men from the Balkan region who had never bothered to learn English, and businesspeople from Singapore who spoke flawless English.
Nobody is demanding the whole world learn English, just those who wish to migrate to Australia, an English speaking country.
What you are demanding is that migrants to this country pass a test that many already legally in this country – including many born here – would not be able to.
You automatically turn to the solution of keeping people out, instead of, say, teaching people English. Because heaven forbid that we would take the initiative.
And given that few Australians learn foreign languages, that makes us look like provincial, arrogant snobs. We demand of others what we don’t demand of ourselves, because we have the land and the guns to keep others out.
I will laugh at how people with your attitudes cope when the leading power in the world is no longer an English-speaking one.
Dec 13th, 2006
David Jackmanson
6100,000 (yes,sixone hundred thousand)Dec 13th, 2006
philip travers
As one of the rural poor,and living on a cattle and spud farm,it is no surprise that someone can get upset by the imported brand of redneck.Which is a term of scientific endearment to me,a way of overcoming the heat.And ,Ithink this is a deeper problem then many may expect,because I have a problem with somebody of ABC. staff,who couldnt help herself in a way that may have effected political outcomes.So who sets the agenda about language use is important,and, well Howard doesnt enough about design in the workplace and elsewhere to be authoratitive..We learn by labeling,this is still possible for adults.
Dec 13th, 2006
ken
Kaye made the msot sensible comment here. the reason this is getting a run is simply to try and get Rudd to take a postion on something his party’s elite (read Paul Walter) and the peoples vote he needs to get into power read (Yobbo) don’t agree on.
At this stage he’s being smart enough to shut up, unlike his predecessor old windbag who had to have a tilt at everything, even convolutedely defending Burke..
Dec 13th, 2006
John Tracey
I wonder if all Australian citizens having the right to a fair trial if accused of a crime would be considered a core Australian value?
Migrants that come from authoritarian countries that do not hold these values and practice detention without trial might get confused about how Australian values and the rule of law relate to such an issue
Also
I doubt that there would be too many non English speaking migrants coming to Australia who would not appreciate assistance learning the new language either before migrating or once in Australia
The way to increase migrant language skills is to expand migrant and adult education programs especially focusing on such things as democracy the rule of law and a citizens rights within work and business contracts and of course a citizens rights under the law including the right to a fair trial if accused of a crime
But me – I am a bit of a redneck
I reckon all migrants should learn the language and law of the country that they move into which is why the Howard government’s cutbacks to Aboriginal language and cultural education programs during their term has been profoundly unpatriotic and just pandering to the ethnocentric dictates of foreign cultures
Dec 13th, 2006
Alan
While I think the test is more about politics than anything else, I certainly agree that we need an official language that everyone should have at least the basics in. This would be achieved far better through ESL funding than Howards test.
Helga wrote (post 11): ‘A test is grossly unfair; especially one which lauds some sort of national identity in a country that is entirely made up of migrants. After all- even the original inhabitants migrated here thousands of years ago.’
One thing i get sick of are the attempts to invalidate the culture grown here by European settlers prior to WW2. While there are negative elements to it, this foundation has given us a heritage that shouldn’t be dismissed as of no greater importance than the cultures brought by post-war migrants. Among many things we have a stable society, separation of church and state, the rule of law, and an army subservient to government. A fantatstic aspect of this home-grown culture is the high rate of volunteerism in Australia, demonstrated by the fire brigades at the moment.
A tendancy to dismiss our roots as irrelevant is no more than a trendy version of the cultural cringe.
Dec 13th, 2006
David Jackmanson
Alan, yes, our Western/Australian culture does have some excellent features (and also some very negative ones).
A simple test (which can be easily gamed by cunning intelligents with no actual committment to the values being tested for) is no way to measure people to see if they will indeed help us to become freer.
In fact, I’d say you can’t know that about a person without getting to know them personally over at _least_ a few months.
You talk about both volunteerism and ESL – well I would put those together.
If a politician would propose to raise resident/citizen volunteers to teach English to new migrants, then I could think this is about community-building, and not just stirring up votes by manipulating fear and mistrust.
Dec 13th, 2006
Kaye Bernard
Strewth the PM’s a bewdy when he opens his ‘north and south’ to stick up for us mob.
Boss cocky Howard said:
“Well Australian values will be I guess debated by many people, but I think we all agree that democracy, we all agree that a belief in a free media, the equality of men and women, the concept of mateship, the concept of having a go and the concept of looking after the very vulnerable in our community. I think they are common Australian values on which most of us can agree.”
He just knows how to tickle a fair dinkum aussie shiela’s fancy when he says those wantin to lob here for good, need to treat blokes and shiela’s the same. Any one would have to be a complete drongo not to realise that it’s all about blokes getting along with blokes and we call it mateship and us shiela’s just love it. And too right we look after the battlers we gave ‘em welfare to work ’cause a lot of ‘em were crook.
And You gotta tip your hat to him when he was spruikin’ about a “fair go” ’cause it was only this time last year when a heap of Aussie Kids nutted out the the good oil on a new kinda rock concert at Cronulla . I reckon the kids ‘bugger#d up’ the tourism slogan though. ’cause when I saw the tin lids on the telly singing out “where the blo#dy hell are ya” another mob tried to shoot through like harold holt’.
The other arvo I heard a a porky doin’the rounds about the PM and some red headed sheila being up to no good a few years back. But who know they could’ve ended up in the sack together cause a lotta those kids I saw on telly last year were dead ringas for them 2.
Hooroo!
Dec 13th, 2006
Alan
Dear me Kaye, you sound so uncouth. Clearly you can have nothing of value to say, and should be excluded from this forum!
Dec 13th, 2006
Give it a rest...
Well Im a ‘white Australian’ born and bred and I live in Japan with my Japanese husband and we are about to bring our first child into the world. I want to come home to raise bubs in Oz – with grass and space and a non-dictatorshiplike education. My husband speaks English and is a skilled worker so we have no issue with ‘failing’ a test. However I just think it’s WRONG!!!
Its political garbage – has no bearing on the problem, and really the only people who think it’s a good idea have never lived in another country and have NO idea of what challenges it involves. They are just jumping on the media/government bandwagon and Im sorry to say I for one am sorry to be associated with them.
How can people who are completely in the dark about the challenges and problems living in another country (especially one with a different language) involves be able to make an educated and therefore correct desicion on whats the best way to gain this ‘intergation’ they are looking for.
I live in a RACIST country. Its perfectly legal here for people to attack me, verbally or physically and I cant do anything. It’s perfectly ok for a taxi driver, retail clark or even doctor to refuse me service. Yet I can get what migrants to Australia cant…free Japanese lessons from volunteers at my local council.
If we really want to promote these Australian values, then we as a community need to do what I am doing with my husband and teaching him. Offer classes – English classes using our values as examples of situations. Migrants need support – which is why until recently (read since 9/11) Australia’s multicultralism thrived and was something we could be proud of.
However 9/11 happened it became socially acceptable to badmouth anyone of muslium or islamic decent…and even people who just looked like they might have fit the bill. And now we have problems within that part of our community. Take away the support and problems arrise.
Dec 13th, 2006
CORAL
TAFE runs a course called TESOL (Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages). Unfortunately it generally only leads to voluntary work. There’s a higher level course as well.
Who’s going to pay to do a course so they can do a voluntary job? I looked into it and gave it the thumbs down.
The government should be paying people to do this valuable work, instead of expecting them to do it for nothing.
Dec 13th, 2006
Yobbo
How do you even know the people you spoke English to on the telephone are white?
Because of their accents. They were clearly people who grew up in a white/Anglo part of society with Australian English as a first languange.
Most retarded answer ever.
I bet you couldn’t tell the difference between me and Peter Bell on the phone, given that he grew up 30km from me on a farm in Kojonup. You do know who Peter Bell is right?
Do you even know the difference between race and culture?
There are people of Chinese ancestry in Australia who can trace their roots back to the first gold rush. They don’t speak like your average foreign students, I assure you.
Does that make them “white” in your opinion?
Dec 13th, 2006
Yobbo
What you are demanding is that migrants to this country pass a test that many already legally in this country – including many born here – would not be able to.
I don’t demand fluency from any potential migrants. But I think people who are seeking permanent residence should at least be capable of speaking English at a basic conversational level.
Dec 13th, 2006
Andyc
I agree completely that the time to test people is when then apply to migrate, not several years later when they want to become a citizen. I suspect that Howard is as confused about the distinction between these categories as are a lot of his supporters. Having said which, many (most?) voluntary migrants are already assessed for law-abidingness, educational qualifications, sponsoring employers waiting for them in Oz, etc. This should be better publicised. How many more hoops are needed?
I also agree that we need to support migrants’ integration into Oz, which means we provide cheap or free English and Civics classes for new arrivals. Providing effective English and Civics classes at school for people who are born in Australia would also be a good idea, since many of them seem to have missed out.
Where I diverge from AB is his comment: “I do think longstanding residents who are British citizens shouldn’t be able to vote”.
It is possible to be a British citizen (born that way), and at the same time an Australian citizen (usually by dint of long crime-free residence here plus bothering to apply, although I suspect it is possible to be born a dual citizen). Voting in the UK is of at best marginal relevance for such people, and may no longer be allowed if they have been off the roll for too long. It makes far more sense to be represented where you are taxed, which means voting in Oz, by dint of Oz citizenship (which also confers the full package of rights-and-responsibilities-where-you-live).
What I suspect AB means is the category of Brits who were already permanent residents before 1988 or whenever, who can vote here without being Australian citizens. This is a bizarre colonial anachronism, and should go. Since they lose nothing by becoming duals, they should do so if they want to keep voting.
Dec 13th, 2006
Andrew Bartlett
You are right Andyc – I should have framed my comment more precisely. There are many British citizens and citizens of heaps of other countries who can vote in Australia because they are also Australian citizens. I don’t have a problem with dual citizenship, although I know some people do.
I was indeed intending to refer to those British Subjects (which is broader than British citizens) who were on the electoral roll prior to 1984 but who aren’t Australian citizens. That group can still vote, and I think it’s time to debate whether that historical overhang should be removed. (I mention a bit more about this in my following post on this topic)
Dec 13th, 2006
Geoff
Every Australian should know English.
But…
The horse has bolted.. it’s probably too late for any measures to repair the damage.
Just saying you agree with certain values doesn’t make it so.
Dec 13th, 2006
Tom2
Hurrah – surely this new white Australia test must be stillborn if even Geoff/Pauline admits John Howard is lair!!
Dec 13th, 2006
Geoff
Andrew… much as I’m flattered by Tom2 waiting on my every post to snipe… is it necessary.
I regard the above comment as stupid as it usually is.
I don’t see where I said the PM was a liar, which makes Tom2 one.
I also see no reason to link me with Hanson as I haven’t mentioned her, nor her latest half-assed comments.
Dec 13th, 2006
Eamonn Keane
Anyone agreeing with theses tests should automatically have to take them, and if they fail they should be deported as they are ‘unaustralian’ (i coined one of john howards favourite terms there). :).
As an Australian born 24 year old white male who has irish heritage as well as german, i am horrified to think some people still support such outdated views.
Yes people should have a fundamental understanding of the english language, and they should probably have some understanding of the history of a country as well, however i fail to see how testing someone on the understanding of a language/history of a country can tell you all you need to know about them.
Explain to me again why our pm wants to introduce this???? It couldnt be because next year is an election year and he wants some cheap political points could it?
Dec 14th, 2006
CORAL
O Ekdikitis:
A person who cannot speak, write, understand or be understood when speaking English is illiterate in English.
Being literate in English is absolutely essential for people working in the health industry and, no doubt, in all other industries as well.
Dec 14th, 2006
Donna
I must admit that my own knowledge on Australian history can be pretty poor at times. Considering I’m a third generation Australian, I’m a bit ashamed of this.
Can anyone tell me the origins of Labour Day?
Dec 14th, 2006
CORAL
Eamonn:
I think there are a number of good reasons for conducting the test.
Apart from the important health and safety issues I have discussed in relation to language skills, it is important for people to understand the culture of the country of which they hope to become a citizen.
It is also a step towards avoiding civil unrest and certain types of crime.
Take for example something I saw in the news 2 nights ago. In Pakistan, a Muslim father had his own daughter pack-raped after she married someone of whom he didn’t approve.
She could not complain to the police, because a woman who accuses a man of rape in Pakistan is sent to jail.
I’m sure you would agree that we don’t want that kind of thing happening here.
As for the history test, I’m not sure how far it goes, but I’m sure it has less relevance for me than the health, safety, social and criminal issues raised – except in a context that backs these issues.
When I asked my 14-year-old son what he thought, he said he agreed with multi-nationalism but not multi-culturalism. I had to ask for clarification.
He said he is quite willing to accept people of all races and origins, as long as they don’t bring their cultures with them. He sees this as a serious cause of civil unrest – not unduly.
So I reminded him that some of his favourite foods (Spaghetti Bolognese and Pizza) had been introduced here as part of the Italian culture. Since teenage boys are heavily into consumption, this ended the conversation.
I’m sure John Howard is also happy for migrants to bring the better parts of their cultures with them, as long as they have respect for, and knowledge of, basic Australian culture and law.
Dec 15th, 2006
ken
Donna – labour day I think was the “nominal day” may 1 chosen to celebrae the beginnings of the 8 hour day. Strikes adn marches etc round the end of the last century, achived that outcome
Dec 15th, 2006
Graham Bell
Everyone:
If you are concerned about this impractical and unfair scheme then I ask you to avoid mentioning the obvious – and obnoxious – relationship of it to the notorious “Dictation Test” of the White Australia Practice ( indeed, there was never a “policy” as such of that name but there were a set of deeply-entrenched, rigid and vicious “practices” that did the same job).
This cynical tactic has nothing whatsoever to do with protecting our way of life and upholding its traditional values. This regime has already demonstrated its enthusiasm for destroying those values and strengths with its fake “anti-terrorism” laws (laws which help rather than hinder real terrorists). No, this dodgy “citizenship test” is all about getting mugs and boofheads to support the ruling faction, nothing else.
There is a lot of fear, apprehension and uncertainty out in the community. Most of it is completely unnecessary, definitely manufactured and certainly the result of dog-whistle politics. When the fearful and the gullible hear opponents of Mr Howard and of this gutter tactic use the words “White Australia Policy” an impression is created – a false impression but politically very useful one nonetheless – that Mr Howard is going to bring back the White Australia Policy and so save us white Australians from being murdered in our beds by all those nebulous terrorists of “Middle Eastern appearance”. (That there are probably REAL terrorists who have infiltrated Australia is a completely different matter).
So, no matter how much you would like to use the term “White Australia Policy” in criticizing this dud …. please refrain from helping the sleazy back-room hatchet-men win by using that term.
Dec 15th, 2006
red crab
smoke and mirrors
just what is the govt up to now.
bet its got nothing to do with this.
while we all sit around gabbing about some silly thing that is realy a simple thing.
this is australia last time i looked our national language is english.
if you wish to come here to live it would seem to make sence to get a fare grip on the language.
to my thinking if a country is willing to give you the privalage of living here in safety and peace i dont think its asking to mutch to try to speak the language
and if thats to mutch to ask for then simple dont come here to live.
Dec 15th, 2006
Clinton
Andrew Bartlett said:
“About the only way you could credibly say any new test of Australia’s history and way of life isn’t discriminatory is if you could demonstrate that virtually all Australian born people could pass it.”
Maybe this should be written in the legislation. Every year 500 Australians are selected at random to take the test, 80% must pass. If you think people are going to undermine this by purposely failing, note that Juries require at least 11/12 people to convict, which is 91%. If more than 10% of people are out there to undermine society, the least of our problems would be a citizenship test.
Dec 15th, 2006
Donna
Thanks Ken for that
To Yobbo, Coral and Red Crab
Immigrant families want prosperity for their families just as we do. They know they have to learn English. It’s just a really difficult language to learn. And particularly difficult to understand Australians since we speak in idioms and our words blend into one monosound.
Some cultural groups will find our language much more difficult to speak than others. It’s virtually impossible to expect a Vietnamese immigrant who arrived as an adult to ever learn to speak English clearly. They move their tongue differently to us, and it’s impossible as an adult to train the tongue to do something it’s never done before.
My Vietnamese sister-in-law runs a very successful business in Brisbane. She’s the most business savy person I know. She raised three boys on her own in a foreign country when hostility was focues on the Vietnamese, not the ‘Muslims’. And I can barely understand a word she says. I just get the gist of what’s she’s saying. Her boys have turned out well too.
Dec 15th, 2006
Yobbo
“t’s virtually impossible to expect a Vietnamese immigrant who arrived as an adult to ever learn to speak English clearly.”
Rubbish. The Vietnamese immigrants (60+ years old) who run the corner shop near my house speak perfect English, albeit with an accent.
It no harder for a speaker of Tonal language to learn English than it is for native English speaker to learn Vietnamese or Mandarin, and there are plenty of English native speakers who are fluent in those languages too.
You’re just “making shit up”, as it’s known in the classics.
Dec 16th, 2006
Kaye Bernard
Yobbo I do a fair bit of advocacy work for the Vietnamese community and my experience is that generally the older a Vietnamese person is at the time they are introduced to english the more difficult it is for them to pick it up.
In amongst my own immediate family it is clear from our interaction with non english speaking people, that our children pick up words (and their meaning) better than my husband and I. One daughter is like a sponge where new language is concerned and often acts as an interpreter of sorts.
I believe that this is often the case for Vietnamese parents in that the chilren take on the role of communicating for them. This can be viewed as a lack of will to learn English when in reality it is matter of convenience for people who are busy rebuilding lives and establishing themselves in a new country.
In amongst the Vietnamese I have worked with who have varying degrees of English language skills ( and length of time in Australia) I must say I have found that some with the least amount of English are the the most patriotic to Australia.
Dec 16th, 2006
red crab
well kaye
i have a new sister inlaw from the philopines she spoke no english three months ago . she has picked it up quite well .THREE MONTHS !
you are rite about australians we dont speek tru english.
but if they dont try how will they learn.
but any way the real point is how many times has howard trotted something out like this when they have something to hide .
Dec 16th, 2006
Donna
Yobbo and Red Crab
I have worked as an ESL teacher, although I’m in the mainstream now, and my knowledge is professional knowledge, not made up.
The Vietnamese find it more difficult to speak our language compared to other Asian languages.
You can’t compare a Filipino to someone from Vietnam. The Filipinos have much more exposure to English, it is their language of commerce. I was never expected to speak the native language when I was in the Philippines. It is also a creole influenced by Spanish, that has tongue movements and phonetics similar and the same as English.
You just can’t compare one language group and their ability to functionally speak English, with another language group, that has no phonetics in common, and particularly have different mouth and tongue movements.
As Kaye has explained, how old an immigrant is when they first begin learning a language is also critical as to how quickly they will become competent speakers. Children below the age of approximately 14 will pick it up more quickly than adults.
Then there are the factors such as whether they’ve mastered their own language. If they’re not skilled in their own language, they will find it harder to learn a new language. Many Australians would find it extremely difficult to learn another language for this reason alone.
What opportunities they have to speak English in Australia with native speakers is also another factor. It’s also about Australian people, everyday people like you and me, giving these people the perception that we’re approachable, and they can ask us a question in the supermarket or in a public place, without being chided or spoken down to or laughed at because of their lack of English speaking skills.
It took Princess Mary around three or four years to become a competent Danish speaker, and that was with intensive ESL lessons that an ordinary immigrant to Australia will never have the benefit of
Dec 16th, 2006
Donna
Red Crab
I agree with you on Howard putting up a smoke screen.
Dec 16th, 2006
Donna
Yobbo
It’s bloody hard for Mandarin speakers, even those that consider themselves ‘fluent’ in English, to speak our language. They get a big shock when they arrive on our shores. They usually haven’t had much exposure to the spoken language before they arrive, and that’s just the university educated ones.
Even Kevin Rudd, who is a speaker of Mandarin, having majored in the language at tertiary level, and the benefit of living in China for an extended period of time, is apparently not as fluent as written.
Dec 16th, 2006
Andjam
I thought civic tests wouldn’t be much use.
However, Ayaan Hirsi Ali notes in an article on another topic (holocaust denial) that a mandatory history course told her about the holocaust for the first time, and it had a significant impact on her.
Such a test wouldn’t be a magic bullet though – Ayaan’s half-sister said with great conviction that the holocaust was a Jewish lie.
Dec 17th, 2006
CORAL
I agree with Kaye.
It is generally easier for younger people to pick up nearly any new skill than it is for those who are older – with some exceptions, of course.
Dec 28th, 2006
CORAL
Donna:
I’m glad your friend is successful despite her language limitations.
But it just isn’t good enough to be able to “get the gist of what someone is saying” in a doctor’s surgery, hospital or nursing home.
Jan 4th, 2007