Speaking out against refugees getting hammered once again
This interview on the ABC’s World Today shows how dubious the government’s claim is that the situation is improving for the Hazara people from Afghanistan. The government’s freeze on processing claims, the reopening of old discredited detention centres and the Opposition’s proposals to bring back Temporary Protection Visas (or something worse) for refugees who arrive her by boat – along with the political and media debate sliding back down into Howard-era levels of vitriol, demonisation and hatespeech – is already causing significant trauma for many refugee communities in Australia.
Unless the number of people speaking out against this trend increases, things are likely to get even worser by the time the election rolls around. Amnesty International is organising rallies in a number of capital cities tomorrow – the one in Brisbane is at King George Square from 1pm.
Below are some excerpts from the ABC interview with Nader Nadery, who has been a commissioner on the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission since it was established in 2002.
ELEANOR HALL: What’s your view of the Australian Government’s change of policy on Afghan asylum seekers?
NADER NADERY: We unfortunately learned about putting on hold Afghan asylum seekers in Australia.
It’s very dangerous to make a very general assessment of the situation and say it’s safe for the asylum seekers to return back to Afghanistan.
As you know and as we are witness on daily basis there, a major part of the country where there’s even not a minimum level of rule of law and protection for people, often the police is the source of violation of rights of the individual instead of being a protector of it.
We don’t have protection mechanisms in different parts of the country who could provide some level of security and protection to those people at risk, let alone those that are under direct attack from the elements within the Government.
In my case as I continue with my colleagues fighting our fight, I go around in an armoured car. And I do have an organisational protection. But I do not live a normal life.
So for those ordinary people who have no organisational protection, who do not have an armoured car and who often come under attack from some elements within the Government, some war lords and also consistently if they are active with their aid or development or government organisations – they would be a target of the insurgents and the terrorist groups.
It’s not a safe place and it’s very dangerous to make a general statement about the entire country.
53 Comments, Comment or Ping
Lorikeet
No, I don’t think the government should go back to using TPVs, but I think about 80% of Australians recently polled wanted to get rid of the Burka.
Some people cite the Burka as being used as a method to conceal identity during a robbery, but my concern is that it is demeaning to women.
Whenever I see women wearing a Burqa, I feel a very strong urge to say:
“This is Australia … where women are supposed to be treated with equality … not as if they are inferior beings to be hidden away.”
May 8th, 2010
togret
How many women have you actually ever seen with a burqa, Lorikeet? I’m talking about a full body covering with or without the eyes visible to the observer. As far as I know usage varies .. and very few totally enveloping coverings are worn in Australia. Estimates are that if there are 100 women total in Australia who wear it in public that would be a pretty generous estimate. Maybe you see women wearing a head-to-foot garment with their head covered but their face visible? Do you object to this? What about Mother Theresa’-style nuns, who cover their heads but only loosely? What about Exclusive Brethren women who cover their hair and wear very modest clothing? Who died and left you in charge of what other women choose to wear?
May 9th, 2010
paul walter
I think Andrew’s latest thread is bringing us back to a consideration of what may consitute a “refugee” and how and why this becomes difficult in a war zone like Aghanistan.
The Hazara’s are a copybook example of what creates a refugee. They are a racial, cultural and religious minority, like the Jews in 19th century Russia, or the Negroes in the deep south of the US. When things are difficult and times are hard, violent and chaotic, minorities always seem to be the first to suffer scapegoating.
The weird thing with the current policy is, that we have a refugee policy that accepts the likelihood of people fleeing violence, but will only accept refugees if they are NOT refugees.
We will take refugees, but not from places like Afghanistan and Sri Lanka, where there is actually a refugee problem!
As for burqas, our own women dressed from head to toe until the nineteen twenties, as well. What we know as “western dress” is actually something only a few generations old, that has not spread throughout the wider world, except amongst elites.
I remember as a kid, for the first time seeing Italian women dressed in severe ankle length black, with headscarfes. Another old mediterraenean society with traditions going back millenia. I got over it, and I suppose I will get over burqas too.
But I suspect burqas were devised for the same reason as cover all clothing in other cultures; to discourage sexual activity in poor communities where unwanted pregnancies could be disastrous.
We live in a society where contraception is easily available, so no longer have this problem, but anyone beyond a certain age well remembers the shock-horror that greeted unsanctioned sexual behaviour even in our “progressive”world, until a couple of generations ago.
May 10th, 2010
Lorikeet
Togret:
I live in Brisbane. I see plenty of women wearing Burqas, especially when I travel into the Brisbane CBD, or across to the southside. The only parts of them you can see are their eyes, while their husbands wear anything of their choosing.
Some Muslim men wear normal business dress, except for a Turban.
Other men (of a different denomination) wear a hard little black head dress. Their women wear the same head dress combined with a flowing scarf. They often have beautiful outfits that cover them from head to toe. Their faces are never covered.
When I was a teenager, my best friend belonged to Exclusive Brethren. She wore skirts below the knee, modest high heels, sometimes a head scarf and no makeup. She couldn’t go to the movies and TV viewing was fairly strictly controlled, but she could never be described as “a hidden woman”.
I find your final question offensive. A woman whose religion requires her to wear her head in a bag so that she becomes almost invisible to others is a woman who is being abused. The face covering also makes it very difficult for the woman to eat.
Not all of the face coverings are the same. Some are made of a knitted fabric which is wrapped over most of the face (even in our hot summer), somewhat like a gag and suffocator. A woman could not eat anything while wearing it, so she generally carries another face covering that can be lifted.
Others wear a black serviette type covering across their face whenever they go out, which needs to be lifted every time the woman takes a bite of her hamburger.
I think you may need to get out a bit more. Then maybe you will know who is out there, and in what numbers.
To say that 100 ladies wearing Burqas is a generous estimate of the number in the whole of Australia is entirely misinformed.
May 10th, 2010
paul walter
Yes, but Lorikeet, does it still not come down to, in the end, a matter of taste?
But your post is intelligent because it raises the question of the utility of the burqa and if am right it is a thing not all Muslim feminists are all that wild about, either.
All religions and ideologies tend to demand a leap of faith and/or act(s) of faith as to followers. Even secularists will act or dress in ways that express themselves or their philosophies.
I said elsewhere that I remember seeing old Italian women wearing head to toe black mouring gear back when I was young. Can you imagine the response if you had told these women to throw away their black gloomy clothing?
I remember the resentment at school towards authority even over relatively small things like long hair and mod clothing.
I think we had better be careful we do not start making martyrs out of people whose situations we have not yet found out about.
May 11th, 2010
Lorikeet
Paul Walter:
I am objecting to women having to cover their faces. This appears to be a requirement of their religion.
In Iran, university educated women are now wearing makeup and refusing to wear the trappings of subordination and subservience.
It certainly could be argued that in our western societies, morality has largely been flushed down the toilet and most of the body coverings removed. As a consequence, we now have high rates of sexual disease, oral cancers, abortion and teenagers parenting alone.
We also have plenty of people becoming depressed or even suiciding over broken relationships.
On a television report last week, it was stated that the biggest killer of young women is suicide.
A couple of months ago, I was horrified to learn of a huge increase in the incidence of HIV/AIDS, syphilis and chlamydia.
I actually agreed with the Muslim Mufti who said that some of our women dress and behave like “uncovered meat”.
I think a lot of the Muslim women wearing a Burqa have access to the contraceptive pill in their own countries.
In Australian society, in which women are at least supposed to have equality with men (doubtful sometimes), I don’t think women should be wearing the trappings of almost totally unequal societies (concealed face).
Some Muslim women from Afghanistan believe that if their daughters have been raped, it has been their own fault. Some even advocate murdering their own daughters if they should become pregnant out of wedlock.
I don’t think women should be forced to accept total responsibility (with or without execution) for the misbehaviour of men.
May 11th, 2010
red crab
two points
why cant i go into my bank with my bike helmet on and stand next to a person with there face coverd with clothing if i even tried to where the same as them i would be told to take it of for security reasons .
that my friend is discimonation.
point two
there are at this date in time 54000 ppl on the waiting list for state housing in west australia alone i dont know how many in australia in total
there is a four year wait list in w.a. and the people who are comming get priority .
theres just one reason for resentment there.
in case you dont get the news over there in fanasy land another two boats came today with over 100ppl on board just who will be pushed back down the housing list this time
.
NADER NADERY:
just what elce would he say once the poor buggers have left they dont want them back because they have to try to look after them .
May 11th, 2010
togret
Red crab: apparently you are not aware that facecovering is not OK in banks by anyone. I agree that if helmets are not acceptable then other face coverings aren’t either. I think that is pretty much accepted. Also, apparently you are unaware that what we call Afghanistan is a very very loose federation of very different people. There is no question of refugees going back and being ‘looked after’ by the nation state — they will be killed if theya re the wrong tribe, wrong sect or are vaguely related to someone of the wrong politics. The place is run by a corrupt ‘government’ that we have no business supporting
Here in South Australia we have had a diverse society since the very beginning, and maybe the WA society has been too isolated too long.
Lorikeet: if a man has a turban on he is more than leikly to be a Sikh, a different religion from Islam. He might be a Hindu, again a different religion. few Muslims wear turbans, since it is usually worn for religious reasons. If you are observing Sikhs or Hindues then of course their wives are not dressed like the very few muslim women who wear the burqa.
After the attack on USA (what they call 9/11) there was at least one Sikh man shot in USA in the mistaken belief that he was a muslim. I ddidn’t think Aussies were so ignorant. I have taught classrooms full of muslim woman. Few cover their heads closely, after 6 months or so, depending on the weather, and often they strongly resemble the Queen of England. I’ve only run across 2 or 3 face-coverers. I find it astonishing that you have been able to distinguish so many individuals as to make you positive of the numbers in Qld, let alone the nation.
Getting back to the topic … I am disgusted by the Labor Party’s crackdown on asylum seekers and thier descent to the gutter in using the fallacious term “illegals”. I think it is dangerous and panders to the worst in the population. It supports the spread of ignorance and adds to the division in the commuity
May 11th, 2010
Lorikeet
Togret:
Yes, you are right about banks. Everyone has to take their head coverings off, so there is no discrimination.
My son works in a sensitive government job where they employ Muslim men wearing turbans who work as interpreters.
Sometimes 3 or 4 women wearing face coverings get on a bus together to go shopping. Where I live, face coverers are easily as prolific as those whose faces are uncovered.
They often eat in small groups in the CBD. Perhaps they keep to a group rather than going out alone, because of the risks they faced living in their own country.
Now here is a news report that will really spoil Red Crab’s evening. Today reporters uncovered a 4 star hotel that has been rented by the government to house refugees. The people wandering about outside the complex looked as if they might be Muslim women (not wearing a burqa).
A spokesman for Immigration said he didn’t want women and children being kept behind bars in a detention centre.
May 11th, 2010
paul walter
There you have it, Lorikeet!
Lorikeet: “I actually agreed with the… Mufti who said some of our women behave and dress like uncovered meat”.
The single most misunderstood statement that the old Mufti ever made.
I beleive he was describing what students of politics call “commodification”, but many people rushed to the conclusion that he was mysogynistically advocating the confining of women. His position would have been be closer to conservative feminist Melinda Tankard Reist, who similarly mourns the commodification and sexualisation of girls, from childhood, by an entrapping consumer capitalist pop/raunch culture.
What have seen washed down the toilet is not so much morality, (except with big business), but innocence and the right to access to life alternatives beyond the consumer life style and its false choices reinforced by intensive advertising.
But I don’t beleive Muslim women are quite such dupes that they will always cop unfair relationships: they will rebel, like western women had to do and like a Muslim women in my street did very recently as to her abusive husband, or they will stay doormats (at the extreme) as some Australian women will do.
May 11th, 2010
togret
Well said Paul. If non-Muslim people actually knew how much debate there is in the muslim world about this issue they might start to realise that that world is not monolithic .. there are shades of opinon on every question *gasp* just like in the rest of human worlds.
Many young muslim women take up some form of veil/modest attire in an act of rebellon against their more liberal parents . Gosh, sound familiar? Many adopt it as a sign of religious convinction, and many becuase theya re fed up with wolf-whistling, lewd comments etc in the outside world, and prefer to be able to control how much invasion theri sense of dignity is subjected to, when outside the haven of thier homes.
Others, it’s true, though none I’ve ever met, don’t choose to wear it, and them I feel for, very deepely. We would not see many of those women in Australia mainly because in the main they come from more traditional backgrounds and would not be here anyway becuase of poverty or the inability/lack of interest of such patriarchal families to live in the West.
I am in favour of women (and men) being able ot wear what they like, so long as it doesn’t outrage public decency … I am in favour of breast-feeding in public but not gratuitous breast-baring in public, and I’m in favour of going hatless in church (yes, I was a catholic girl in the 1950s when you were criticised if you didn’t at least wear a scarf to mass … oh how quickly we foget) if people wish to do so. I’m not keep on peering past the breasts of a young women in the bank if she shows me some information on her screen, but I tolerate it because I don’t see that I have a right to interfere with what others wear, distasteful though I find it. Apparently some people find it offensive to be even asked what right they have to dictate the clothing of ohter women .. I wonder what they think of the floozy-wear sold for young girls? DIfferent story? I wonder.
May 12th, 2010
Andrew Bartlett
Lorikeet wrote:
“Now here is a news report ….. Today reporters uncovered a 4 star hotel that has been rented by the government to house refugees. The people wandering about outside the complex looked as if they might be Muslim women (not wearing a burqa).
A spokesman for Immigration said he didn’t want women and children being kept behind bars in a detention centre.”
This story is tabloid TV rubbish at its worst. The government has been using motels to house asylum seekers families (esp women and children) at various times for many years. It was particularly prevalent in the later years of the Howard era, when public pressure to stop jailing children in detention centres grew very strong.
Using motels can obviously be very costly, but so is using detention centres – which just highlights the pointlessness (and high expense) of the mandatory detention laws.
May 12th, 2010
red crab
if i complane about someone covering there face in the bank i would be called a racist.
but the way i see it im the one being discriminated against because of religion not race
you know whats so good about australia its the fact that religion plays a very small part in our society and thats the way it should be look at what its done to the countrys from which some of these ppl come from
i dont have a problem with any form of clothing worn buy anyone some things i think are a bit wrong but its not for me to judge.
small point the most stunning woman i have ever seen was a muslim lady on christmas island she had her head coverd but not her fase.
Now here is a news report that will really spoil Red Crab’s evening. Today reporters uncovered a 4 star hotel that has been rented by the government to house refugees.
and who pays for it was it 1.2 mill for a year oh and there is the small amount off 200 mill for extensions on christmas island wonder what they intend to do for the ppl who live there . mabe the same as they are doing for the ppl on the housing lists push them back down the list.
ppl smugglers one australia nill .
i stand buy my prediction border control will be at the centre of the next election.
togret
small point perth is second only to darwin for ethnic diversity in this country at this point in time.
May 12th, 2010
Lorikeet
Togret:
Yes, I grew up in the Methodist Church, where women and girls wore hats to show their subordination to both God and man.
When a man entered the church, he took his hat off as a mark of respect for his Maker, and also to show that he was not the one being subordinated.
There are always going to be problems associated with religion, but I still think the world was a better place when more people went to church. Now the only things people worship are sex, egocentricity and the mighty dollar.
No, I don’t want women dressing like flooseys either. Let’s have a wide range of dress options that don’t make men, women or children either completely “non-existent” or too lascivious.
Most of the Asian visa holders I’ve met in aged care seem to come from fairly strict Christian societies who will never be “sold” recidivist ideas. They are completely appalled by the decadence of our society, together with lack of infrastructure (such as a place to live!).
One Indian nurse is seeking alternative employment because he says he doesn’t get enough shifts. I asked him if he felt he was the victim of racial discrimination. He said no, but he likes to be able to do his work properly (for which there isn’t time).
I think we need to be careful of those who would deliberately stir up racial and religious conflict in order to wipe religion out. When someone removed the Christian symbols from a hospital chapel in Sydney, reporters tried to blame Muslims. But when the Muslim leader was questioned, he said it had nothing to do with him.
Some people are complaining about the same sort of things happening in our schools i.e. deliberately creating a problem where there isn’t one.
May 12th, 2010
togret
People interested in the facts, as against the spin, about refugees might like tohave a look at this paper prepared by the Parliamentary Library in Canberra. They are not paid by K Rudd or T Abbot .. they are paid by you and me, year in and year out, to be researchers, not party-paid spin merchants. They don’t work for any government, they work for the Parliament itself.
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/bn/sp/AsylumFacts.pdf
2 points from the dozen or so in the summary:
All unauthorised boat arrivals in Australia are subject to the same assessment criteria as other asylum applicants and also are subject to comprehensive security and health checks.
•
Claims that refugees in Australia are entitled to higher benefits than other social security recipients are unfounded.
May 19th, 2010
togret
And this one, from last December
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/BN/sp/AustGovAssist_Refugees.htm
Australian Government assistance to refugees: fact v fiction
May 19th, 2010
Colin McDermott
Lorikeet:Whenever I see women wearing a Burqa, I feel a very strong urge to say:
“This is Australia … where women are supposed to be treated with equality … not as if they are inferior beings to be hidden away.”
I find it amasing that people still reckon that the best way to remove a Burka is to outlaw it and oppress a persons religious and cultural freedoms! I guess you would prefer the burka to be outlawed, fundamentalist muslim women to be kept at home all the time by their husbands and that these women never get to see a “freeier” example.
Please don’t treat these women as idiots unable to make a decision!
May 22nd, 2010
Naomi Cartledge
When women in Australia are treated equally with men, I’ll celebrate it! It doesn’t exist. Women are still well behind men re their incomes, positions of CEO’s and even in the high echalons of business – of any kind. Keeping in mind, that as far as I recall, women are now in a majority, be it small. Women are also subjected to double standards, and women still do 75% of housework, primary care of children, and frequently of aged parents – both sets!
I heard the other day, that in Iran in 1920, it was ILLEGAL for women to wear a burqa – many Muslim women choose to wear a hijab, and probably a burqa, as they don’t wish to be treated like women in the West are – as sex objects, as sadly, are children these days – in advertising for example!
It’s the men for eg in Afghanistan, who are oppressing women and girls every day, who insist on women wearing the burqa, but as I read in several books, the latest by Malalai Joya (not her real name)- ‘Raising My Voice’ women use it to their advantage – they hide books, cameras and other ‘goods’ vital to their determination, to educate themselves and girls, many of whom are orphans. It’s not just the Taliban who are responsible for the cruelty and despotic actions, it’s the war lords and Mujahadeen(the bad ones?) who are causing much of the fear, terror, torture and murder. All of these groups are represented in the pro US government run by the US stooge, Pres.Karzai. Malalai was one of the few democratically elected by her community, but has been suspended(banned) from Parlt due to her speaking out against the murderers and criminals inside the parlt and outside it too! The fact that she’s been threatened with rape, torture and murder by other politicians(publicly)hasn’t forced their ’suspension’? She went to see Karzai, and he just berated her for speaking out!
If we’re really concerned for Muslim women, we’d stop murdering their family members in Iraq & Afghanistan.
May 22nd, 2010
red crab
i agree with naomi i think the rest of the world should pull out of afganistan and iraq and leave them to sort out there own problems .
we would all be better off.
women are now in a majority, be it small. Women are also subjected to double standards, and women still do 75% of housework, primary care of children, and frequently of aged parents
seams fare to me there is more of them .
i seam to remember doing 100% of building our house mmm
If we’re really concerned for Muslim women, we’d stop murdering their family members in Iraq & Afghanistan.
speek for yourself i have not murderd anyone here or there .
.
May 23rd, 2010
Lorikeet
Colin McDermott:
I certainly don’t believe that Muslim women should be kept at home, or that they should have to wear a Burka when they go out.
It isn’t me who wants to oppress women from Muslim societies. I’m not sure where you gleaned this strange perception.
May 23rd, 2010
Kaye
whenever I see an underdressed women/girls in australia I often arrive at the same (but differnt) response to those so adamently complaining about the covering up of women…I want both groups to choose their garmemts without fear or favour of those who would explicitly or implkctly dictate their wardrobe…
I do not belive that young australian women need to wear anything other than what they want to however I am concerned that the pressure from advdertising has forced some young australian women to shave their upper pubic hair line to enable them to wear low slung jeans…this could ne considered the reverse burka
May 26th, 2010
red crab
well well well tthe govt have finally found a way to dump there problems on to w.a.
boat ppl going to leonora how exiting it will be for them there one of the worst places in w.a.
wearing a burka wil be the least of there problems not to mention how cold it will be compared to christmas island
i cant wait for the complaints to start
and as far as racism go,s they will have to deal with real racism out there .
but then thats something that the ppl of the east coast wont have to hear about will they.
with the super tax and now this rubbish i dint think labor can count on any votes at all from western australia.
Jun 3rd, 2010
togret
Red Crab – who do you believe will be exibiting racism towards the asylum seekers? The local aboriginal people? The people of the town?
If, as has been reported, they’ll be under 24-hour guard, they’ll hardly see anyone from the town. In South Australia they were kept in purpose-built centres that were so lit up at night they couldn’t see stars, and so surrounded by barbed wire and high fences that they could not see anything of the surrounding country at all.
The same sort of mindset seems to have won out again, so I’d imagine they’ll have little chance to mix with anyone, not even the friends they’ve made already – they’ll probably be broken up into areas and have to submit to body searches to visit another area.
If they are Afghans/North Asians, they’ll be used to cold, but if Sri Lankans, they’ll probably suffer from it. Pity help the poor taxpayer who has to foot the bill for more fly-in/fly-out guards, doctors, etc, and pity help the poor souls who will be cut of from community support, education, medical facilities etc.
Pity help those who thought of this briliant plan, for surely their souls must be contorted by this action, and pity help those who push and push the xenophobia button in the hope of winning an election. What is the point of being in power if all you do is harm?
Jun 3rd, 2010
Lorikeet
Kaye:
Excellent points.
Jun 4th, 2010
red crab
the kids will be going to the local state school
with special teachers and special medical etc etc
il give them about a week and then listen for the complaints
leonora is an out back mineing town
no sissies living there
they will be comming from 5 star tropical accomidation to ziro star mining camp dongers in the desert
but then i dont think the govt can afford too many more motels in queensland .
people smugglers win game over.
Jun 5th, 2010
togret
Red crab – how fortunate you are. You live in a country where you are in no imminent danger of being forced to leave your home and all you have known for centuries to rely on the compassion of others through no fault of your own. You don’t have to wonder why the Australian government does not obey its own laws (look up our Immigration Act). You can pretty much guess where you’ll be living next year, and you have the chance to work and build a future.
I hope for your sake that doesn’t change, because you don’t sound to me like someone who would cope well with that kind of adversity, being inclined to blame others for a state of affairs you don’t like, without the gumption to find out the facts and just a touch self-pitying, with little to whinge about it seems to me.
I was talking to a young migrant man yesterday who was praising Australia to the skies, saying what a great opportunity he sees now that he has gained his citizenship. He will have his own business in 12 months, having worked as a Hungry Jacks person, a security guard and a taxi driver for the last 18 months (yes, he has 3 jobs .. goodness knows how the coming baby was conceived, as his wife keeps the same sort of punishing schedule) … the sort of people we need, it seems to me.
This country is lucky to have new folk who can do more than moan about others very existence and mock their misfortunes.
Jun 5th, 2010
Zoltan
Why do we hammer refugees?
The Commission has consistently called for an end to mandatory immigration detention because it places Australia in breach of its obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC).
The ICCPR and the CRC require Australia to respect the right to liberty and to ensure that no one is subjected to arbitrary detention. If detention is necessary in exceptional circumstances then it must be a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim and it must be for a minimal period.
The Commission accepts that immigration detention may be legitimate for a strictly limited period of time in order to obtain basic information about health, security and identity. However, under current practice, the detention of unlawful non-citizens is not an exceptional step, but the norm – and it is often for lengthy periods.
Jun 6th, 2010
Zoltan
From the human perspective – refugees hammered
Lets look at the refugees from the human perspective. Does it contravene the human rights. The misfortune in these cases is that our migration legislation does not permit the Australian courts to review the detention of these refugees and asylum seekers. I ask the government when considering their policies, is this a reasonable way of treating these people?
I would say that the government is in breach of their obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Under this there is a court empowerment to release these individuals from detention under certain circumstances. To what extent the Australian government considers this?
When we look at the Migration Amendment (Immigration Detention Reform) Bill 2009, it states that non-citizens:
(a) must only be detained in a detention centre established under this Act as a measure of last resort; and
(b) if a non-citizen is to be so detained – must be detained for the shortest practicable time.
We as people need to stand up to the government to spread the word and find ways to stop what the government is doing. It is evident that there is physical and mental abuse at these camps. But I think people are ignoring it because it does not concern them directly or have no knowledge of it. However, eventually these people, least a majority of them end up in our society. Living under our laws and culture: and policies.
Under law it is illegal to abuse someone. So I ask, what the government doing to these refugees, is it abuse? In these cases the government seems to using hidden policies that people are not really paying much attention to. Social workers need to more involve in these decision and policies. These people are also human beings with feelings. We could probably conclude that the Australian government is contradicting themselves with their laws and beliefs.
I think the government needs to concentrate more on their policies wi
Jun 6th, 2010
red crab
togret
i would never or do i have the right to judge you or anyone elce even the ppl i know well.
so what gives you the rite to judge me whats next the racism comment .
the fact that i see things differently to you and comment gets a reaction
as i have sead before you canot have a debate with only one point of view
as with a lot of ppl you try to judge someone you know nothing about to get te upper hand in the debate poor judgment on your part
.ihope for your sake that doesn’t change, because you don’t sound to me like someone who would cope well with that kind of adversity, being inclined to blame others for a state of affairs you don’t like, without the gumption to find out the facts and just a touch self-pitying, with little to whinge about it seems to me.
question do you know me or anything about my past
question would you like it if i commented about you personaly not knowing you at all
i think not
but thats what makes me the better person.
mabe you should try to be more like zoltan and make good pionts to win me over to your point of view
It is evident that there is physical and mental abuse at these camps.
question zioltan how many so called camps have you seen.
myself iv only seen two and the one on christmas island is close to a 5 star resort the only difference is they have a fence that i belive is not needed because you just dont swim away from there.to many sharks .
togret your turn win me over with something useful.
.
Jun 6th, 2010
togret
Red crab – what else do you want to know? I’ve pointed out websites where information about the amount of money and other benefits genuine refugees are able to gain access to, since you were quoting bits of vile propaganda from WA shock jocks.
Since then you’ve again said that refugees in some way affect the amount of money or housing that others get, and that they are “illegal” despite having had that denied by countless contributors to this forum as well as information I looked up for you.
You have apparently been right inside the Christmas Island Detention Centre and approved it as approximating a 5 star resort. I don’t stay at those, but I doubt they have electric fences and cameras under eaves, on roofs and in every room.
Let’s not forget that the unfortunate souls there will be locked up for months with no idea where or what their future may be … limited ability to get legal or other support and no opportunity (on CI) to have “drop-in” visitors .. not that it was that easy at Woomera, Baxter, Curtin etc.
Soft beds and balmy weather , if they exist, don’t add up to freedom. The harmful effects of incarceration on previous detainees are well-known … but still the government persists. I’m sorry to see that you cannot empathise with people who are made to suffer by _your government_ .. and hte next one will do this, or worse, unless we tell them not to do it in our name.
I don’t think I have used the word racist toward you. Please show me where I have done so. I dont’ think you are a racist … xenophobic maybe. If you can show me where I said “racist”, I’ll apologise. If you can’t, I expect you will.
Jun 6th, 2010
Lorikeet
Red Crab:
Some of your comments could be interpreted as racist, and others are probably just a statement of the facts.
Jun 7th, 2010
red crab
you are correct i dont think you have called me a racist i was infering that you mite if the debate dosent go totaly to you way as iv seen too often (not buy you) .
i do feel sorry for those ppl who come here and i dont realy think its good to lock any one up
iv have been to see the detention centre there and stand buy my comment
what my biggest worry is iv seen what happend in other countrys when they have been over run buy ppl comming in too fast
boat ppl are a very small percentage of the ppl entering australia at the moment and the gov keeps the focas on them to distract from the real truth of just how many ppl they are actually letting settle here
some ppl see that as a good thing but myself and most of the ppl i speek to see it as not good .
. since you were quoting bits of vile propaganda from WA shock jocks.
mabe thats because w.a is copping more than its fare share at the moment
mabe if it was in your back yard and you could see it every day then you mite think a little different .
i dont usually take much notice off gov statistics because you and i both know that the are mostly constructed to favor someones point of view .
eg if the govt was fare dinkum they would publish the full amount of ppl comming here and where thay are comming from .and how they are getting here,
but we both know that wont happen.
.Soft beds and balmy weather , if they exist
so is that not better than most of them have experianced any time in the past .
Jun 7th, 2010
Augustine.M
Asylum seeker treatment in Australia is not fair particularly visa halted for Afghans unjust and seems like a political considerations. According to the Nadar on ABC interview, her comment was that Afghanistan is not a safety Country, Children in the detention centre should be paramount considerations government policies. It seems that Australia is a racism country. Because of this election year government is not looking after this desperate asylum seeker. I watched an article about Afghan UN worker who flee from the country recently praised about Australia and was very grateful to this country and also was pleading to help fellow asylum seeker for help.
Social worker should consider policies to help these issues and assist Government to make appropriate decisions.
From January to August this year, Australia took in below average numbers of asylum seekers compared to previous years and global intakes. The UN High Commissioner for Refugees has calculated that the average number of asylum seekers by a country in the global context is 197 per million of population. On that basis Australia’s fair share for the first 6 months of 2009 should be 4,197 rather than the 3,666 we have taken so far. In a global context the average rate of asylum seeker intake according to population ranks Australia 20th out of 44 countries worldwide, behind countries such as the United Kingdom, Ireland, and Canada. According to another key factor –Gross Domestic Product is falls to 24th place when ranked by asylum seeker intake per size of GDP. The vast majority of asylum seekers arrive in Australia by air. (Action for Australia)
Jun 10th, 2010
Augustine.M
Last year, of the 13,500 people granted asylum in Australia only 206 of those arriving without visas came by boat 2,291 came by plane-well over 90% There is also data to suggest that people who arrive by boat are more likely to be legitimate refugees. Of asylum claims made by people who arrive by aircraft 55% are rejected. Only 2-15% of claims made by people arriving by boat are denied. This number is also small when compared to the number of people who overstay their visa in Australia each year, particularly those on travelling visas, the majority of whom are English-speaking tourists. (Get Up Australia 2010)
White Australia Policy: The origins of the white Australia policy can be traced to the 1850s.Throughout white history, Australians have feared invasion by the hordes from the north. Racist attitudes are not unique to Australians; what is the unique is the fear of invasion and especially is being overrun by Asians. The white Australia policy effectively excluded most Asians until its demise in 1973, Australia’s treatment of migrants is inconsistent. On one hand, it has accepted migrants from Britain enthusiastically, and migrants from Europe with tolerance, sometimes reluctantly. On other hand, migrants from Asia have been excluded for the greater part of settler history. Immigration has been a significant and controversial part of Australian history since 1947. Australia is an ‘Immigrant society’ with immigration playing a pivotal part in nation-building process. (Asylum seeker, Australia’s Response to Refugees)
Jun 10th, 2010
Lorikeet
Red Crab:
Australia is such a great place to live, 158,000 permanent residents arrived in 2008/2009, and approximately half as many GOT OUT AND WENT ELSEWHERE!
Jun 10th, 2010
red crab
so now we have some 200 at leonora and curtin is againe open for bussiness and some 600 young males are reportedly going there within a couple of weeks mabe you dont get the real news in the east but if the govt keeps dumping there probs on w.a it is going to go bad for them .
so tell me what happens when you just drop say 200 youn males into an alian community.
Australia is such a great place to live, 158,000 permanent residents arrived in 2008/2009, and approximately half as many GOT OUT AND WENT ELSEWHERE!
mabe it just wasent good enough for them
the ppl smugglers stratage has worked well and now we have a very big and expencive problem which is only going to get worse.
Jun 10th, 2010
Lorikeet
Yes, according to a graph provided by both Peter Dutton MP (Liberals) and Senator Barnaby Joyce (Nationals), there has been a huge spike in asylum seekers since Rudd threw the flood gates open.
It is just part of the global plan to redistribute populations and wealth by any and every means possible.
In the future, the world will be a melting pot turning out coffee coloured people by the billion.
Jun 11th, 2010
togret
Not quite right there, Lorikeet.
You have confused permanent residents and permanent arrivals.
You referred to ‘Permanent arrivals (settlers) … people visaed
offshore under Migration and Humanitarian programs,
and New Zealand citizens (not counted as part of
the Migration Program) who intend to settle here
permanently.
They might not have permanent visas, though. WHat they intend and what is allowed to happen are not the same thing, e.g. they may for some reason orother not ever get a permanent resident visa. I am no expert on this – it is wise to make sure of your definitions before talking about migration – different wordings sometimes from the rest of us.
Those ‘permanent departures are Australian
residents (including former settlers) who indicate when they leave the country that they do not intend to return.’ http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/popflows2008-09/pop-flows-chapter1.pdf
So the departing people could be people like me who are 6th or 7th generation Australians or they could have arrived yesterday.
Jun 11th, 2010
Lorikeet
Togret:
My information came from a government website. It didn’t include any visa holders.
Jun 12th, 2010
red crab
question
if i happend to be a person who has come here to australia got my perminent citizenship then desided to leave againe
do i retain the australian citizenship privlages while i live elce where .
if the answer is yes can i expect the australian ppl come rescue me if i end up in the same war zone that i left to get to australia .
Lorikeet
In the future, the world will be a melting pot turning out coffee coloured people by the billion.
mabe thats not a bad thing but the way is it the worlds problems is not really about colour so if we were all the smae colour it would not change a thing .
Jun 12th, 2010
togret
Lorikeet: “permanent residents ” means a particular type of visa holder. They are not citizens, but might become citizens one day. My brother-in-law (Welsh) is one of those. He doesn’t want to become a citizen, and is a permanent resident visa holder, intends to stay here permenently, but if something changed he might not, e.g. if family back in UK needed him.
The stats you looked up (http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/popflows2008-09/pop-flows-chapter1.pdf) talk about “permanent arrivals.” (See page 4) These might be people with any kind of visa who intend to stay permenently, but who may already be an Australian-born citizen, returning from overseas, who intends to stay permenently, or some other kind of citizen, e.g. someone who was not born here, is a citizen, has been living abroad and now has returned, which is different from a permanant resident visa-holder, or they may hold another type of visa, such as retirement visa, or one of the many other kinds of visa there are.
The two terms do not mean the same thing.
Red Crab: I am not an expert on this, you might find out more form the Dpt of Immigration website (www.immi.gov.au) but I see no reason why someone from Country X cannot become an Australian citizen and then go to live elsewhere for some period of time. What is your problem with that? Citizenship is what you get when naturalised. It is not revoked when you step on a plane or boat.
Jun 12th, 2010
Lorikeet
Togret:
The site I looked at said “permanent settlers” numbering about 158,000. Net migration was $80,000.
Most of the visa holders I’ve met hope to become permanent residents, but there is no guarantee they can stay. I’ve also heard complaints from Kiwis who said they couldn’t get permanent residency after coming here as visa holders.
Red Crab:
A couple I know took their family to Indonesia to live, due to the man getting engineering work there. They have both Australian and Indonesian citizenship and can vote in both countries. (I think it should be 1 person = 1 vote somewhere, but not everywhere.)
A man I met recently said he was a citizen of NZ, Spain and Denmark. Although he has lived here for 20 years or so, he has never become an Australian citizen. He said he intended to spend his retirement years in a fishing village in Argentina.
Jun 13th, 2010
red crab
togret
i dont have a prob with x becomeing and australian citizen then because of unforseen curcumstaces have to live back in there old coutry for some time .
what i do have a problem is when x has come here just to be a citizen of australia knowing that they do not intend to live here for too long but intend to keep there citizenship for the privalages that brings without at any time putting in anything .
question
dose anyone know when the govt is going to stop dumping the asylem seekers in w.a and a small amount into queensland now and start taking them to nsw and vic or mabe they are afraid the prob will be seen as big as it is
if you have not herd yet the arivals onto christmas island has neally doubled the ppl that they have taken to the main land ops i mean w.a.
and that has only taken a few days .
if rudd and the labor party is ok with this and mabe be part of his adgenda to increase the population at a fast rate he should say so now so the ppl know where they stand if not stop pushing any other adgenda to take focas away from the current situation. and do something constructive about it
question
andrew if the greens get to have the ballance of power what position will they take regarding asylim seekers .
Jun 13th, 2010
togret
For the last time… Permanent residents are the holders of a PARTICULAR KIND OF VISA.
Only citizens (new or old) need no visa to live here.
Not a citizen = some kind of visa.
Why don’t people find this sort of thing out? God knows I am no expert, there are hundreds of types of visas, but surely the PR definition isn’t too hard?
Citizen over the age of 18 = the right to vote. Good god.
Citizen = you can come and go so long as you have a passport etc. The same people who complain about the government bullying them then complain that the government doesn’t bully other people about where they live etc. Oh, hang on … “other people” _can _ be bullied, but not me.
And as for why the Asylum seekers are not placed in inner cities, or near the centres of populations … exactly red crab, exactly. That would mean we could support them, observe how they are treated and find out that they are human like you and me .. not fearsome “young males” as if they were not even human.
Jun 13th, 2010
paul walter
Togret, my breath is taken away at your indomitable spirit. Many would have given away trying to till such marginal land, metaphorically speaking.
Must be like trying to communicate with house bricks.
I was going to suggest we could “Stepford” them in some way or another but the authorities have been doing that for a decade now, so its a bit hollow, that one.
Jun 14th, 2010
red crab
lol
we see things the same they should be put into cilys that can look after them better than outlying settlements out of the way.
nsw and vic would be the best place,s for them theres more housing and more work if they want . it seems that everyone that supports them lives there anyway to me that would be a good out come
togret
just where did i say anything about Permanent residents
and where did i sugest that any one was sub human
the point i wanted to get across is if you place a large number of one ethnic group of males between 18 and 25 that dont speek english have no money and no employment and little houseing with not much chance of that changeing in the future the impact on a community could be unproductive.but thats the time the ppl who supported the relocation cant be found and its left to the community to sort out the mess.
well paul you and i both know that 99% of voters are related to house bricks they dont question and the dont understand so they always vote against anything they dont understand or like .
but just mabe it mite be the so called educated and accademic ppl who dont understand
how interesting things would be if house bricks asked questions like me
mabe we would discover a big gap between education and intelegence .
Jun 14th, 2010
togret
red crab, I was referring to lorikeet’s comment about visas, sorry I didn’t make myself clear.
BTW: still waiting for your apology for having said I called you a racist. Truth and acceptance of mistakes is important to me.
As to why they asylum seekers go to remote regions, you’d have to ask those who want to lock them up or to pretend that everything is completely safe for them in Sri Lanka and Afghanistan. I think we all know that isn’t true.
I don’t know why you assume that all asylum seekers need to learn English. Many do, but many don’t. I know a young egyptian woman who gives help voluntarily at her christian church to anyone wanting help with their tax return. Mainly they are aboriginal people. Her ability to do that was gained through study here in English, her 3rd language, but assisted by her degree in accounting from Egypt.
We do better when we remember that each incomer is an individual who has a story and is a human being .. not a ‘male’ or ‘female’, but a man, woman or child, very similar to ourselves.
Paul, I’m not that good a teacher, but it is my hope in teaching and elsewhere that if I keep trying, my communication might get better. I don’t see people as bricks, but there are certainly bricks in the way of honest communication. Such a shame when we all want the same things.
Jun 14th, 2010
togret
Someone wrote this letter to the editor of the age in melbourne “: WHY is it that when a white, middle-class child in a high-tech yacht gets into trouble in the middle of the ocean, no expense is spared to ensure her safety and our country is happy to pick up the bill?
Yet when poor, non-white refugee children in barely seaworthy craft experience similar difficulties, we are almost deaf and blind to their plight and resentful of every cent spent on their recovery?”
True, that.
Jun 14th, 2010
Lorikeet
Togret:
I don’t think Australians are all that happy to pick up the bill which should be paid by the girl’s parents.
The first girl who managed to sail around the world only did it for the money.
It really disgusts me that parents would encourage their children to embark on such perilous journeys, purely for the fame and fortune.
Jun 15th, 2010
red crab
BTW?? is that me
if so ithought i did already
(so what gives you the rite to judge me whats next the racism comment ).
that was my statement i never sead that y called me a racist but indicated that you mite do in the future if the debate wasent going you way .
Yet when poor, non-white refugee children in barely seaworthy craft experience similar difficulties, we are almost deaf and blind to their plight and resentful of every cent spent on their recovery?”
good point
how much has it cost to keep border control boats permanantly looking for refugee boats 24hours 365 days .
iv herd that its costing 200 thousand a week just to transport refugees and the suport ppl they need every week now to and from christmas island and thats just air craft .
but then i supose its good for the people who live out there they have the good fortune to be able to pay $12 for a single lettes if they can get one
no such problem out at noth west point though .
Jun 15th, 2010
Lorikeet
Red Crab:
This is what I think the asylum seeker problem amounts to.
The United Nations will not do much to sort out difficulties/wars in various countries. As a global organisation, one of its primary aims is to redistribute populations by any means possible.
So we have:
(a) a massive immigration program.
(b) visa holders brought in to do low paid work, whose stay is more likely to be permanent.
(c) people getting out of war zones on boats.
Jun 17th, 2010
red crab
so now we have some ppl of leonora complaining its just not working out for them and they see how the gov is looking after there gests .
but as iv been told the gov dosent give them anything more than they have to
mabe thats the reason the gov wants them in western australia and not placed too close to the states they should placed .nsw and vic that seams to be where all the ppl who look after them come from anyway so it would make sence to me to have them o the east coast saving the gov millions .
that spare money could then be spent on schools etc etc for the new commers but mabe the govt dosent want the ppl on the east coast to have accsess to the asylem seekers so they dump them in remote areas of western australia. where every thing has to be imported at great cost and effort . just dosent make any sence to me.
Jun 20th, 2010
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