Immigration detention and deportation in the USA

Aug 1, 2009

Immigration detention and deportation in the USA

There is more evidence that, however unjust and dysfunctional the administration of Australia’s immigration laws was in our recent past, it is being outstripped by what has been happening in the USA.

There are more and more examples coming to light in the USA that have echoes of the Cornelia Rau and Vivienne Alvarez debacles of the Howard era in Australia. The reasons these things are happening are similar to causes of the same gross injustices that occured in the adminstration of Australia’s immigration laws. A government wanting to look tough, an attitude that migrants have fewer rights, deliberate efforts to prevent access to legal advice or other communication and detention centres run by private providers.

From the New York Times:

One toxic remnant of one of the Bush administration’s failed wars — the one on illegal immigrants — is immigration detention. Wanting to appear tough, Bush officials cobbled together, at great speed and expense, a network of federal centers, state and county lockups and private, for-profit prisons.

The results were ugly. As we learned from reports on the secretive system, detainees were locked up and forgotten. They were denied access to lawyers and their families. They languished, sickened and died without medical attention.

On Tuesday, the National Immigration Law Center issued the first comprehensive report on abuses in a system that holds about 30,000 on any given day and more than 300,000 a year. It found “substantial and pervasive violations” — ignored for years — of the government’s own minimal monitoring requirements.

From the San Francisco Chronicle, there’s this:

When Brian Lyttle got word on April 22 from the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala that his brother Mark had been deported to Mexico and bumped around Central America for three months, he was floored. The family had been searching for 31-year-old Mark and feared he was lost or dead. Mark Lyttle was born in Rowan County, N.C., and had never left the United States. He speaks no Spanish and has no Mexican ancestry.

But Mark Lyttle suffers from mental illness. He has bipolar disorder, which requires medication, and is also mentally disabled.

He had been living in a group home when he got into trouble for inappropriately touching an employee. Lyttle pled guilty to a misdemeanor and served 85 days in jail. Instead of being released, he was turned over to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) because a jail form listed his place of birth as Mexico. ICE did not investigate his citizenship. He spent two months at an Atlanta detention center just miles from his mother, who didn’t know where he was.

and this:

Houston chef Leonard Robert Parrish, 52, wasn’t locked up by ICE or deported, but he did run afoul of a law intended for illegal immigrants. The Brooklyn-born Parrish went down to the Harris County sheriff’s office in September to clear up a problem over a couple of bounced checks. He wound up in jail on immigration charges. He was strip-searched and spent 12 hours in custody.

“The deputy told me I had a foreign accent,” Parrish recalled. “I told him I had an East Coast accent. He said, ‘It sounds like a foreign accent to me.’ “

and this:

Hundreds of U.S. citizens have been detained and, in some cases, deported by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement….

Cesar Ramirez Lopez, a San Pablo truck driver, won a $10,000 settlement in 2007 after he was held for four days by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents even after his lawyer convinced ICE investigators that he was a citizen.

“When ICE came and detained me, I told the officer I was a citizen,” said Ramirez Lopez, 25. “They told me they didn’t want to hear it, that I was going to get deported.”

Others – detained for months or years and in some cases even deported – are suing for much more. Among them are:

– Pedro Guzman, a mentally disabled man born and raised in Southern California, who was deported in 2007 to Mexico, where he survived by eating out of garbage cans for three months while his frantic mother searched for him.

– Rennison Castillo, a Washington state man who was born in Belize but took his oath of citizenship while serving in the U.S. Army in 1998, who spent seven months in an ICE prison in 2006.

“Part of the problem goes back to a system that locks people up when they’re placed in deportation proceedings and then doesn’t provide them with legal representation,” said Matt Adams, the legal director at the project.
…
Some longtime observers of the immigration agency say that, while citizens make up a tiny fraction of the roughly 400,000 people who pass through ICE custody each year, such cases occur with some regularity. The problem is exacerbated, they say, by the fact that immigration detainees, unlike those in the criminal justice system, lack the right to legal counsel and other due process protections.

Cross-posted at Crikey.

113 Comments, Comment or Ping

zeezil

Maricopa County, Arizona is the best area in the country for reliable illegal alien crime statistics. The county sheriff, Joe Arpaio, has aggressively decided to combat illegal alien crime in his county. He has partnered with federal ICE through the 287 (g) program which trains local law enforcement personnel in determining and dealing with illegal aliens. He has a well staffed Triple I Unit (Illegal Immigrant Interdiction Unit).

The MCAO report from County Attorney Andrew Thomas features these startling numbers for prosecuted felony cases in Maricopa County, Arizona:

In 2007, illegal immigrants accounted for:

10% of sex crimes convictions
11% of murders convictions
13% of stolen cars convictions
13% of aggravated assaults convictions
17% of those sentenced for violent crimes
19% of those sentenced for property crimes
20% of those sentenced for felony DUI.
21% of crimes committed with weapons
34% of those sentenced for the manufacture, sale or transport of drugs
36% of those sentenced for kidnapping
44% of forgeries
50% of those sentenced for crimes related to “chop shops”
85% of false ID convictions
96% of smuggling convictions

Illegal immigrants make up 19 percent of those convicted of crimes in Maricopa County and 21 percent of those in county jails.

Illegal immigrants only make up an estimated 9 percent of the county’s population.

It is estimated that each violent crime cost citizens $20,000, and each property crime cost citizens $4363 per offense.

All the more a concern is research that finds the likelihood of an illegal immigrant being incarcerated grows with longer residence in the United States and that the U.S. born children (considered citizens) of illegal immigrants are dramatically more likely to be involved in crime than their illegal immigrant parents. For instance, native born Hispanic male high school dropouts are eleven times more likely to be incarcerated than their foreign born counterpart.

Aug 2nd, 2009
zeezil

“Taking Back the Streets: ICE and Local Law Enforcement Target Immigrant Gangs”, the Center for Immigration Studies report issued Oct. 2008 offers these highlights:

# Transnational immigrant gangs have been spreading rapidly and sprouting in suburban and rural areas where communities are not always equipped to deal with them.

# A very large share of immigrant gang members are illegal aliens and removable aliens. Federal sources estimate that 60 to 90 percent of the members of MS-13, the most notorious immigrant gang, are illegal aliens. In one jurisdiction studied, Northern Virginia, 30 to 40 percent of the gang task force case load were removable aliens.

# MS-13 activity was found in 48 states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico.

# The immigrant gangsters arrested were a significant menace to the public. About 80 percent had committed serious crimes in addition to their immigration violations and 40 percent were violent criminals.

# While immigration law enforcement is a federal responsibility, ICE cannot do the job effectively without assistance from state and local law enforcement, particularly when it comes to immigrant gangs.

# Failure to adequately control the U.S.-Mexico border and to deter illegal settlement in general undermines the progress ICE and local law enforcement agencies have made in disrupting criminal immigrant street gangs.

For full report, see: http://www.cis.org/ImmigrantGangs

For VIDEO summary of the report: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTRvXYuBgYQ&eurl=http://www.cis.org/ImmigrantGangsVideo

Aug 2nd, 2009
Strayarts

INCARCERATING PEOPLE “FOR PROFIT” IS IN A WORD….WRONG!
Even if one does not ask or pretends not to see the rope and the flashing red flag draped around the philosophical question standing solemnly at attention in the middle of the room, it remains apparent that the mere presence of a private “for profit” driven prison business in our country undermines the U.S Constitution and subsequently the credibility of the American criminal justice system. In fact, until all private prisons in America have been abolished and outlawed, “the promise” of fairness and justice at every level of this country’s judicial system will remain unattainable. We must restore the principles and the vacant promise of our judicial system. Our government cannot continue to “job-out” its obligation and neglect its duty to the individuals confined in the correctional and rehabilitation facilities throughout this nation, nor can it ignore the will of the people that it was designed to serve and protect. There is urgent need for the good people of this country to emerge from the shadows of indifference, apathy, cynicism, fear, and those other dark places that we migrate to when we are overwhelmed by frustration and the loss of hope.
My hope is that you will support the National Public Service Council to Abolish Private Prisons (NPSCTAPP) with a show of solidarity by signing “The Single Voice Petition”
http://www.petitiononline.com/gufree2/petition.html

Please visit our website for further information: http://www.npsctapp.blogspot.com

–Ahma Daeus
“Practicing Humanity Without A License”…

Aug 2nd, 2009
Andrew Bartlett

Zeezil

Nothing you have posted even attempts to justify the long-term incarceration and deportation of american citizens and others without legal representation or due process. I would have thought one of the first things a proud pro-American would want to defend was individual liberty and the rule of law.

In any case, relying an a report from the CIS about immgration is like relying a report by the Ulster Loyalists about Sinn Fein. Given that country more than most was and continues to built on immgrants, I find the fericiously anti-immgration stuff that people such as the CIS put out to be quite perplexing. It’s attacking one the key things at the heart of what created the modern USA, which is an odd thing for so-called patriots to do.
And Maricopa County in Arizona is about the worst place to get accurate statistics about immigrants, legal or otherwise. The Sheriff there quite openly taregts people perceived to be illegal immigrants ahead of everyone else, so of course they will be over-represented in his crime statistucs. It’s precisely that sort of unthinking unilateral zero tolerance approach which leads to the rampant injustices in the immgration system which any number of reports are now highlighting (including those in my original post).

By defintiion, crimanlising innocent people or whole gropups of the population, like Hispanics, will make them more prone to show up in statistics about crime. That’s why such statistics are bogus, because they are biased from the outset by the perverted and slective form of ‘law’ enforcement which creates them.

Aug 2nd, 2009
Lorikeet

Well, what about New York’s new cheapskate method of dealing with homelessness?

They spend $500,000 a year exporting people by plane to other States and countries, because it is cheaper than accommodating them!

Some go to Paris, with a population of 22 million people and a tent city of 100,000!

Aug 2nd, 2009
philip travers

Andrew appeared in typing to make a few errors,probably because he felt an anger that makes it hard to be nit-pickingly accurate as far as typing is concerned.And frankly a angry Andrew,is probably a state of being that maybe more real to him than what he likes or wants to be seen to be.However ,I would thank Zeezil for his contribution,as much as I think Andrew’s view must be valid,even from the great distance between the view of his and the happenings.There is also no evidence in Zeezil’s contribution an actual disagreement with Andrew here. And the point that Zeezil didn’t contribute on was matters pertaining to Australia.I think , that personal pressures of sheer numbers of people,Andrew Zeezil and myself may have different capacities of handling.After all being oneself often simply means being able to spend a great deal of time not being a social animal,or more,sensing a importance of place and self..without being crushed by the human traffic.Not that anyone has to decide yo cannot care about the unknown humans around the place,more, one must rely on the fact there will be some commonalities.Andrew was pointing out injustices,Zeezil was pointing out numerical recordings of U.S.A. Justice.Zeezil now needs to wait 24 hours for further elucidation of his attitude. I personally agree with Andrew,but, felt Zeezil may not want any misrepresentation of his views,except how he has assumed these statistics allow him to feel there is another side to U.S. Policing or Policy. Andrew covered that well I thought.

Aug 2nd, 2009
ANDREA TRAVIS

That immigration and deportation needs to be taken more serious,these facilitys are hard they are being held for crimes they have commited or have served time for already they are being held for months and not being treated fairlysome of them have no acess to reach home to notify there familys were they are some familys can not help there loved one to try to stay in the us it cost alot of money and time they hold these people like they are prisoners not detainees and trust me there are some bad ones and there are some that are here legally but just being held for a crime they did in the past and it was already taking care of the us should stop and see what is really going on is always about money we are talking about people lives here something that was already done 16 years ago and that was rehabilitated from should not have to be deported if they are here legally.and give these people some kind of help and knowledge!!!

Aug 3rd, 2009
Tony

STRAYARTS

STARYARTS Says: INCARCERATING PEOPLE “FOR PROFIT” IS IN A WORD….WRONG!

I agree. It would take a very sick government indeed to allow private firms to incarerate citizens and hold them for whatever reason. Governments should never under any circumstances allow this to become a practice.

If this is occuring then the government of the day must be held fully responsible and any parliamentary protection be removed to allow individuals to pursue legal compensation personally from the member/s responsible for allowing such an act. Likewise for any Directors or private firms that accepts such a role.

The thought of a private corporation running a prison would and should revolt any decent member of society that holds respect for their country’s constitution.

Tony

Aug 4th, 2009
philip travers

A few finer points, that need to be kept in mind about Government versus Private matters.Today Government describes its activities as corporate,and is subject in some way to matters competition,but seemingly cannot compete directly with private and or publicly owned by shares corporates!? The N.S.W.Government wants to have 13 super Ministries that have now inflammed some debate because the country fire fighters don’t want it.If Government wont do it by accounting processes,it seems hell bent by other means to have corporate structures created for the same accounting.The Electoral Commission is subject to this accounting corporatisation.Republicanism seems to imply getting rid of On Her Majesty’s Service for statute law that has Corporate demeanours.In fact many Australians have tested the Law in Court and found the present day Statue Law holds greater sway in our Constitution than common law based on the elaborate British traditions.International Corporate Law that has become a standardised approach ,even now means The Catholic Church requires Priests not to teach,unless they have definable teaching qualifications.The Confession is actually challengeable at Law along the same principle as Teaching.Priests are employees of The Church,but Hail Mary considerations do not indemnify against psychological conditions a result of guilt remaining pathologically.Where Corporate Governance is heading,to me at least is frightening,as much as Privatised Imprisonment.

Aug 4th, 2009
Tony

philip travers

philip travers says: Where Corporate Governance is heading,to me at least is frightening,as much as Privatised Imprisonment.

I agree. The ALP and Liberals are working hand in hand to bring this about clearly emphasing the flawd political idea we hold of the two party system. The ALP want good corporate citizens from 4 years old to 70, that will adapt to the corporate world labour requirements as required. (and keep them working for longer hours for less)

Both parties believe and are working towards a Socialist/Corporatist state. The Queensland Government is a prime example. Takeovers by QRail of portions or WA and NSW Rail clearly show that they are nothing more than corporations agressively borrowing and risking tax payers money on risky takeovers. (Which do not benefit the residents in either state). Once they fail they then proceed to steal the assets from the public and sell them off as if it was their right and or would benefit the electorate (which we know it cant). The theft and sale of income bearing assets will leave revenue shortfalls which increase taxes(both directly and indirectly by increased service costs on the sold items) and the public end up paying dearly for their mistakes.

It seems as long as the mule voter continues to vote for one or the other of these parties nothing will change.

Yes Phillip it is frightening ……Very frigtening indeed.

Tony

Aug 4th, 2009
Edward

Andrew Bartlett, who was probably the most relentless, vociferous, and unreasonable open-borders proponent in federal parliament for most of this decade, Australia’s own Joan of Arc in reverse, loves to post stories about how “unjust”, “inhumane” and even “xenophobic” Australia’s immigration policies are, despite the fact that Australia has the highest per capita immigration intake in the world. These extreme levels are still not high enough for Andrew, evidently.

Andrew’s basic goal seems to be the promotion of the free flow of people into Australia. Which would be sort of like the captain of the Titanic saying, “The basic goal is to promote the free flow of the waters of the north Atlantic into my ship.”

And like many other immigration enthusiasts and multiculturalists, AB invokes economic arguments to justify his open-borders position.

Of course, the truth is that AB and his friends don’t personally care one fig about the Australian economy. Helping the economy is the rhetorical tactic they use to make the open borders cause seem unquestionable and irresistible. I mean, does anyone seriously believe that such immigrant-worshipping, multiculturalism-peddling Cultural Leftists are actually motivated by such practical, mundane concerns? Of course not. Their aim is not material, but spiritual: to break traditional Anglo-Celtic Australia, to smash whatever remains of the Old Order, so that it can never return. Massive Third World immigration and the radical demographic and cultural changes it is bringing about will certainly achieve those ends.

In another time and place AB would have been a Bolshevist. But Communism won’t sell in Australia. So he pushes open borders instead.

Aug 4th, 2009
philip travers

Is Zeezil a two post pony,or is a horse who saw the gift,but swallowed too hard!?Seeing I was applying my “would he be a good neighbour test?” Then it seems Andrew’s response to him fitted the bill more succintly!? Unless he ran out of chaff ,or something I typed was the straw that broke the camel’s back!Surely he wouldn’t cower,a tan angry Andrew,we prefer not heroic Americans or even cowards but individuals making sure they have a go at being decent with their opinions,even if wholeheartily “we”,Aussies, disagree entirely.After all it can also be presented by Andrew Australian based statistics,on say, tragic deaths per population density, and wether Australians want to believe it or not,the correlations seem to attest to a violence than is worse than not wanting to do the dishwashing.

Aug 5th, 2009
ken

Whether prisons should or should not be be one of the range government services provided by private organisations is a question worth debating.

However the stupid continuation of ignorant and unifomed statements such as this Tony “It would take a very sick government indeed to allow private firms to incarerate citizens and hold them for whatever reason” detracts from what could be a worthy debate.

As a poltical player Tony you should be well aware (in fact I can’t belive your not) that people are only jailed after a due legal and judicial process, they aer incarcerated by theState, not the private firm – they then may well be “looked after” for want of a better term, however the private frim is simply the service provider not the determiner of the incarceration.

Whether they should be the service provider is debateable – we have had a privately run jail in Junee for some time with no more problems apparently thtn any state run one. theer are at least another five in Australia even in the deep north at Wacool.

Aug 5th, 2009
philip travers

Is Tony a member of Parliament or something!? The presence of five working privately run jails in Australia,isn’t proof of concept.It is a proof of the fact that jails can be privatised.There will never be a proof of concept either,which is bound up with your statement about law courts etc.There is another form of jail I would like to see eventuate in a human way..social isolation by outdoor work,and self-imprisonment by returning to isolated abode every night..with set contract work that then becomes the imprisonment rather than being a prison.IT COULD UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES,IMPLY USING A GUN TO DO CONSERVATION WORK..WITH,SORRY, a calculated number of bullets issued per week.The real penalty for this amount of freedom is human isolation,and having to fulfill a task that will determine the length of isolation.We,Australia had this enormous length of the rabbit and fox fence,an isolated job if there was one.Not that I am really inspired by massive culling of animals and interfering human artifacts in the ecology.I think prisoners should have the right of working holidays within,well within their prison sentence,as both reward for being good prisoners up to that point,and, just to allow some release of pent up matters[including fights between prisoners]..which for some could be using a gun,and finding life is really precious, than it was before incarceration.Someone could cover the costs of incarcerated like a bond for that period incl. government via Univ.studies and perhaps experiment with diet etc.

Aug 5th, 2009
Tony

ken

Ken Says: However the stupid continuation of ignorant and unifomed statements such as this Tony “It would take a very sick government indeed to allow private firms to incarerate citizens and hold them for whatever reason” detracts from what could be a worthy debate

What debate. Economic rationalism I suppose. ? (what rubbish) the argument shouldn’t even be entertained.

Its like the stupid argument today about whether private security guards should be armed at military bases. They shouldn’t be employed there. It mocks our whole Federal/State based system of law.

Miltary bases have always been protected and guarded by themselves.
Its cheaper. (kills the argument of economic rationalism) and allows the protection of the countries military hardware/software and secrets.

Tony

Aug 5th, 2009
togret

Tony, whether it is cheaper in time of peace to use highly trained killers as security guards I don’t know … but we are not in a time of peace. A risk assessment will have been done on the cost benefit of using a scarce resource (highly trained killers) as watchdogs or whether to dispatch them to various places around the globe and take the risk of attackers attempting to get past the civilain contractors. Apparently we are rather thinly supplied with the ones who work at the ponty end killing people overseas … so someone decided to not waste 2 or more years of training someone as a specialised defence person to have them stand in a guard box, when they can employ (cheaper!) someone not in short supply – civvies with a couple of weeks training if they are lucky in security work.

Few soldiers … high cost each
Many civilians — lower cost each. It’s called the capitalist system. I thought you were in favour of it.

Aug 5th, 2009
ken

Nice try Tony – but you actually ignored or perhasp deliveberatley avoided or maybe are incapable fo understanding the point of my post which was the insinuation that private firms incarcerate people.

Aug 6th, 2009
Tony

ken

Nice try Tony – but you actually ignored or perhasp deliveberatley avoided or maybe are incapable fo understanding the point of my post which was the insinuation that private firms

Ken I am well aware who incarerate citizens and is reponsible for them.

Ken also says: however the private frim is simply the service provider not the determiner of the incarceration

Service provider …. We are not talking about a commercial enterprise here. We are talking about the incarceration of prisioners that is and should always remain the responsibilty of the crown. Not some new globalist clap trap term like service provider.

Togret says: Few soldiers … high cost each
Many civilians — lower cost each. It’s called the capitalist system. I thought you were in favour of it.

There is no cost saving whatsoever in bringing in security guards to man the gates of a military establishment.

I have served as a quartermaster on many a ship and establishment and was often armed when doing so. It is not an additonal role of the military personell its part of their training and duty responsibility.

Bases still have to have duty personell on duty on every ship or establishment. So the additional cost of security services, as has previously been shown just an additonal cost. (I would like to see the creative accounting of anyone who thinks differently)

The problem we have with the military, is all the hangers on that shouldn’t be there. (adding to the costs) A professsional miltary unit should be self sufficient in all areas and not have to rely on any civilian interferance.

We’ve just witnessed those failures in IRAQ where US civilian drivers have taken the place of military drivers at a cost increase of $9500 per week Each and then asking that they have military escorts.

Its economic rationalism gone mad.

Aug 6th, 2009
Tony

Ken

If we’re going down that road why dont we just take the judges of the payroll and employ a service provider. Perhaps to save money we could employ them out of India or Bangladore ?
They could perform the service by video conferencing to help save costs.

Why not if it saves money and removes responsibility of the minister.
Ken thinks its a good idea. Lets throw all responsibility out the window.

Torgret:
Seeing as though we are using private corporations to guard our military establishments perhaps next year the tender could go to a chinese firm. I’m sure that would be a feather in Rudds cap.

Why not… Seems as though we are allowing steel from India to be used in our construction sites here in Queensland.

As Ken says they’re only service providers…. so why not?

Aug 6th, 2009
Andrew Bartlett

That’s pretty funny Edward – I presume it is meant to be satire. Either that or you’ve been inhabiting a parallel universe which distorts perspective beyond any semblance of reality. Unless you choose to believe that I really have a secret agenda to destroy the ‘Old Order’ (whatever that is).

Being of mostly Irish heritage, I am rather fond of most aspects of the Anglo-Celtic cultures that continue to influence modern Australia. Including those nice ancient British concepts of the rule of law, habeus corpus, support for human rights.

It seems to me that those people who can happily and repeatedly brush aside blatant abuses of some of the most basic foundations of a liberal democracy as somehow being necessary to stop the ‘wrong’ people immigrating are the ones who are wanting to smash Anglo-Celtic traditions.

Aug 6th, 2009
philip travers

I agree with you about Edward whose attack seems to be based on your support of new chums,as planned and accepted officially,and refugees. I notice that some smart arsery is occuring here and there because of the recent investigations in Melbourne, that occured under the New Laws relating to Terrorism.Even Ungerer in the Sydney Morning Herald avoids the reality of assessing matters in a fair manner,when it is so easy to decide that threats exist to our nation.Threats may exist to our nation from say Indonesia,but it won’t be because of you,Andrew, or myself,as I notice you have stronger opinions about Defence than I have.And that is where the Democrats are really missed,because sadly,it is evident,that our journalists and academics are soul destroying,bloody theme artists,rolling things into a frame of whatever seems to be happening now.Rather than the sound REASONING practice of never being thematic,until by sheer wait of evidences specific,rather than general, an thematic reality is a threat.If for example with the problems of Indonesia as they are ,in terms of being in a very Volcanic earthquake zone,calling all the Muslims there a potential threat, really doesn’t meet the reality of the threats to their lives from the explained.It could be that Indonesians land on our shores in large numbers,after a very dramatic event,hoping to survive as humans,rather than being Muslims.I will not kick them,if they were that down…Australia may have major problems too then.I think we need to modify the Ungerers too!

Aug 6th, 2009
ken

Well done Tony

“Service provider …. We are not talking about a commercial enterprise here. We are talking about the incarceration of prisioners that is and should always remain the responsibilty of the crown. Not some new globalist clap trap term like service provider.”

You’ve managed to mangle more metaphors than lorikeet a great effort.

The responsbility is with the crown, is alwasy and has alwasy been with the crown and will alwasy remain so. How the work is provided can be differetn from the responbility. think about your own house and a tradesman, you might engaeg somene to do some work, but its still your responsbility for your home.

try to think through the issue ratehr than be scared.

Aug 7th, 2009
philip travers

Sorry to be excessively nit-picking,but Ken I think from my reading of Tony he hasn’t really argued his point that far away from yours that you then find the need to use the word scared.Whereas it is scarey in terms Andrew alludes to… the American processes.And hunting around on the Net last night,when it is enforced to release 40,00 prisoners as California must do according to a site I visited under Obama’s direction,more because of costs,I would say,even if a race related matter maybe involved,and I cannot tell what degree of Enterprise is involved,accept to say, there are always strange matters of Enterprise in the U.S.A. Government.So,with unemployment,assessed by an outsider at16.5 of the population over there,plus 40,000 released prisoners in one state so far,the historical human design of the prison system isn’t one to emulate.National guards maybe soon used in areas of Alabama,once again a cost crisis,in law enforcement which will have its prison corollary.Personally Ithink the United States is in so much turmoil,it is impossible to accept much that comes from Fed. Government and Media like Murdochs!

Aug 7th, 2009
Tony

Ken:

Ken Says: The responsibility is with the crown, is always and has always been with the crown and will always remain so. How the work is provided can be different from the reasonability. think about your own house and a tradesman

I think that is the poorest attempt of a comparison I’ve ever read.
The idea that incarceration should be a profit making venture by corporations poses a real moral issue for one. (I’m sure that lazy and irresponsible governments in this country are heading that way, but we should all be firmly against it)

It then poses the same question that I previously asked. If governments can sink that low then why not outsource the judiciary.
I’m sure countries like India, China, and Burma would all put in very competitive bids.

The other question one would ask is if our politicians are this lazy and immoral why not outsource them? Burma and Indonesia would put in good bids I’m sure.

Private Prisons

In WA
and again

The UK experiment failed as well.

When will they learn.

Tony

Aug 7th, 2009
Lorikeet

Ken:

Whenever anything is privatised, it is done to cut costs, and usually involves the employment of fewer workers doing more work for less money. Very often, it also involves money leaving the country via multi-national corporations.

I don’t really think we’re in need of privatised service provision in jails or detention centres.

The government has sold off our utilities, with government coffers losing money, and the sale of other income bearing assets can only be a continuing revenue loser.

Why should we want to lose revenue while handing government contracts to private companies who will treat our workers badly, and probably provide a poorer service. There is nothing in it for the taxpayer and leaves workers on a minus score.

Andrew:

To be fair, if you read the Australian Greens’ policy on Global Governance, you will find their ideas do not differ all that much from yours.

Edward:

“Open Borders” is a precursor to, and ongoing component of the move towards neo-communist global governance. Please read Australian Greens’ policies if you haven’t already.

Aug 7th, 2009
Andrew Bartlett

Lorikeet

I have seen you repeatedly refer to this alleged ‘Global Governance’ policy of the Greens. Unfortunately, I’ve never seen a Greens’ policy by this name, or even any use of the phrase in any of their material. If you could point me to the policy or policies you are referring to, I might be able to compare it with my views.

In any case, I don’t see what that has to do with ‘open borders’. I have never advocated an Open Border policy, and whilst I have heard and read many things from the Greens over many years, I’ve never noticed any of them advocating it either.

In my experience, whenever someone points out unjust or unfair practices in immigration enforcement, they tend to get falsely accused of advocating open borders by others who use it as way of avoiding having to acknowledge the injustices that have been identified.

Aug 8th, 2009
Lorikeet

Andrew:

Most of my references to Global Governance have come from no one but me, based on my assessment of where government policies have been leading us in the last approximately 30 years.

But here is a link to Australian Greens Policy. Look at Policy Category: E. Human Rights and Democracy. You will find Global Governance as a sub-heading.

This policy was issued in March 2007, and only came to my attention a couple of weeks ago.

Under Category: A. Environment, you will find their policy on Population.

http://www.greens.org.au/about/policy

While I am unaware of a specific Open Borders policy, I believe our huge intakes of migrants from all over the world are part of the plan to redistribute the world’s peoples in order to bring us down to the lowest common denominator in terms of lifestyle, employment etc. Our government is still bringing in migrants despite unemployment issues.

The Green army of workers will comprise a Work for the Dole type scheme, with a training allowance of a little over $40 a fortnight. Unemployment benefits and Widow Allowance were not increased in the May budget.

The main aim of free trade agreements is to financially empower certain countries at the expense of our own workers/citizens. I haven’t read The Greens’ policy on trade, but I’m sure they have exactly the same agenda as Labor/Liberals when it comes to Global Governance.

I think we should all try to find the time to read all of the policies, and give some real thought it where they are leading, and the means by which they hope to achieve their goals.

Aug 9th, 2009
philip travers

I just want to reinforce my opinion about Ungerer.Noting tonight that China has a typhoon problem where 1Million people had to be moved out of harms reach.This is awe inspiring really.Could Australia do that!?And the chances they may have too one day,are higher than what they may seem to be.That is why,I am impressed by Indonesian efforts,when things are going badly.So even though news out of China seems really rough on some Australians,and I guess ,the Chinese government will stick to its line on Rio Tinto.[honestly I don't care about that so much] The truth or not the recent bombings were a prelude to an attack on the central figures of the Indonesian Government, would have to make Ungerer’s statements totally devoid of substance,and academically dim,and as an Australian,as one way of describing myself, I really don’t want people like that trying to influence views,unless they can be relevantly factual.I got use to Dr.Mathahir from Malaysia,who I had more respect for than the Singaporeans,even though, as a sort of open minded,non-manipulative person from the working class,which does mean an element of Marxist views, the Ungerers would in their vain way,decide that Australia has to forget there may be endless similarities between Indonesians and ourselves.Unexplored.One of them that shouldn’t be,is a willingness to by government create psyops like scenarios.Where any one could turn out to be considered terrorists!

Aug 9th, 2009
Guido

I know that this will be contested by many here, but would an Identity Card be a solution?

If a document can be used to prove the citizenship of an individual, then you can’t lock up someone just be cause he looks ‘different’ or has a ‘foreign accent’.

Aug 10th, 2009
ken

Andrew this would be Lorikeet’s reference

http://greens.org.au/node/776

Aug 10th, 2009
Tony

Ken:

Yeah they’ve soften it a bit from the 2007 election document I have.

Tony

Aug 11th, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

EDWARD “the fact that Australia has the highest per capita immigration intake in the world.” This is not true.
myth 9I downloaded this on 26/7/03 from Chilout! The Edmiund Rice Justice & Peace ‘group’ have also investigated these facts.
The numbers haven’t dramatically increased in this country as opposed to many overseas, so this would be still a myth?

AUSTRALIA IS SECOND ONLY TO CANADA IN THE NUMBER OF REFUGEES IT TAKES.
Fact:This is incorrect.This claim is based on the fact that Australia is one of only eight countires whose immigration program actually specifies an annual quota of refugees, and at 12,000 Australia’s quota is the second highest on a per capita basis. However, as UNHCR reports indicate,many more than eight countries take refugees and asylum seekers-but unlike Australia they do not set a fixed number. These are the facts:
*71 countries accept refugees and aylum seekers in some form or other
& of the 71 Australia is ranked 32nd;
*On a per capita basis Australia is ranked 38th, slightly behind Kazakhstan, Guinea,Djibouti and Syria;
*Of the 29 developed countries that eccept refugees and asylum seekers Australia is ranked 14th. Per capita, the US takes twice as many refugees as Australia.
Edward, perhaps you can enlighten us when Howard’s generosity extended itself, how the Rudd govt kept it or increased it, and what and where did you get your stats from? Perhaps you’d be kind enough to let us know!

My understanding, is that in the last couple of yrs, there’s many overseas countries where the numbers of Afghanis and Iraqis in particular have increased. Perhaps if we stopped entering countries in the Middle East on a lie, they wouldn’t have to flee in fear for their lives?

Aug 11th, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

EDWARD – (continued)
A few more relevant stats. Crikey, 22.4.09
Go to – Asylum seekers, the facts in figures There are 40 of them! You may be interested to read them! I’ve chosen just a few!
Number of refugees around the world? 37.4 million.
CURRENT QUOTA for refugees coming into Australia : 12,000
Number of asylum seekers who arrived last year: 4750
Number who arrived by boat: 179
Amount of money spendt on the Pacific Solution over five years: More than $1 BILLION
Increase in the number of asulum applications in Australia between 2007-08: 19%(The Australia)
Increase in the number of asylum applications in Finland between 2007-08: 181%
Percentage increase in the number of asylum applications worldwide from Afghanistan in 2008 : 85% (UNHCR)
Number of persons in immigration detention in Aust.as of 12 Sept.2008-274
Number who’d arrived by boat & unauthorized – 6
Number who’d arrived by air & unauth. 40 (HREOC)

I’m proud to place my name beside Andrew Bartlett’s, as being an opponent of our inhumane, unjust and zenophobic behaviours towards asylum seekers. Further, the facts re the hysterical and zenophobic attitude to those who arrive by boat is out of proportion to the facts?
Number of asylum seekers who arrived last year? 4750
Number who arrived by boat: 170 (both facts, Malcolm Farr/Telegraph)
Those who arrive by boat are treated differently than those by air. Why?Usually those by boat are from poor countries, including the Middle East. Those by air aren’t usually subjected to detention while their claims are assessed, and have access to the full legal processes; unlike the boat arrivals, particularly if they ‘land’ on excised territory!

If we ‘cherry pick’ those who we deem ‘entitled’ to be treated with justice, fairness and in a humane manner, then we become like the autocratic, war torn countries from which they had to flee! That’s not an Australia I want to proudly defend!

Aug 11th, 2009
red crab

Naomi Cartledge

i dont know where you got your info from but i would suggest that you read it
and question it not just copy and past.

Number who arrived by boat: 179 ??? theres a boat at christmas island NOW with neally that many ppl on board .it arrived yesterday

Number of persons in immigration detention in Aust.as of 12 Sept.2008-274 ??? how many were not in detention but just put into the community.

Increase in the number of asylum applications in Finland between 2007-08: 181% ?? how many did they accept.compared with australia

Australia’s quota is the second highest on a per capita basis.

Of the 29 developed countries that eccept refugees and asylum seekers Australia is ranked 14th. Per capita, the US takes twice as many refugees as Australia.

just how dose that work???

its a bit twisted me thinks.

On a per capita basis Australia is ranked 38th, slightly behind Kazakhstan, Guinea,Djibouti and Syria;

i wonder what the numbers would read if ppl could just walk across the boarder into australia like they can into those countrys.

the truth is out there but not in those facts one just has to look for it.

Aug 14th, 2009
philip travers

Right! Red Crab! And all this refugee stuff means we are,as humans here,in Australia.. a favoured nation.All we need now are marriages galore on the dugout track and transplanted to Victoria of the Kokoda Trail,and leave a few stones across the various water ways,and the refugees start singing that song about walking 400 hundred miles, putting brochures in peoples letterboxes that say” it isn’t true the legs working now and songster is but a African Terrorist in disguise!”.Or a token Australia First Party person comes here and denies any and all relationships with distributing brochures in Victorian letterboxes.What is happening in Brissy Andrew!?.

Aug 14th, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

RED CRAB- No, you just read it again. It clearly stated LAST YEAR -that’s 2008.This is 2009? You’re an obvious statisic yourself. If you read the stats you’ll assess the fact, that the numbers of people overseas, to wit Finland, in comparison to the applications for asylum in Australia is immense. These are not my stats-they’re statistics from the UNHCR; articles in newspapers etc. If we really want to stop the flow of those seeking asylum, we could stop killing their friends and relatives in Afghanistan & Iraq!

A very significant statistic is, that there’s a lot more people coming into Australia via air(that’s with a legitimate visa that is ignored after the due date has expired).These people remain in the community until their application is dealt with. It’s only on a negative response that those people are placed in detention. However, those who arrive by boat are detained immediately, and kept in detention until they are given permanent residency status; or, as in past times were given a TPV?

The point of some of those stats, is that people get hysterical over those who arrive by sea in a leaky boat, but don’t even know, that lots more arrive ‘legally’ by air. Further, those who arrive by boat on an excised part of Australia are refused access to the same legal procedures as those who arrive by air – landing on Australian soil.

Did you go to the source that I added on my comment? Have you gone to this site and read the 40 facts there, or are you placing your queries based on the corporate media’s deliberate lies?

At any given time in this country, there can be up to 60,000 people here whose visa has expired. They came here ‘legally’ by air. The hysteria over ‘boat people’ is based on lies and exaggerations. Why doesn’t the media explain the facts? They’re racist and want to help the govt of the day in its quest to demean people who LEGALLY seek asylum as laid out in the UN Declaration on Human Rights-Article 14.

Aug 15th, 2009
red crab

for once i do agree with you naomi you are correct there are many more ppl who come here other than boat .and the problem is blown out of proportion regarding boat ppl . one small fact though it do,s cost quite a fare bit more to come buy boat .
but i get my info only from what i have seen and credible ppl who are involved in some way.
i gave up reading news papers long ago and even the tv is corrupt and rarely tells the truth
any statistic can be twisted to a anyones point of view the govt do,s it every day .

phil thats deep mate
i dont understand what you are getting at but it shaw sounds good
i just got back from brissi and its all good there .

Aug 19th, 2009
Lorikeet

Well, I think the people who arrive by air are probably a bit smarter.

Maybe some of the people arriving on boats could not get a visa for some reason.

Aug 23rd, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

Lorikeet – Most of the people who arrive by air are from the UK, Europe etc. Many either lie when they state their reasons for coming here and then apply for asylum, or change their minds for all sorts of reasons – they’re the majority of ‘unlawfuls’ that could be here at any time – up to 60,000 or so. They are usually white and speak English!

Those who come by boat on the other hand, have fled their countries in fear for their lives, or to escape persecution etc – these have been known facts as the ‘As a Last Resort’ proved. They can’t apply for a visa as there’s no where or no one to apply to; in many countries, trying to escape is punishable by imprisonment at least, or death. Imagine fronting up to the likes of Saddam or similar, and asking for a visa?

Those who come by boat are usually from the Middle East or some such country that is in a state of war, for example Sri Lanka or Somalia, apart from Iran, Iraq and in larger numbers, Afghanistan. These people also have darker skin and often speak very little or no English. It has nothing to do with being “smarter”?

Prior to the (13yrs)sanctions, then the invasion of Iraq in 2003, that country had some of the best Universities in the Middle East, not only that, but people going to Uni to study architecture for example, were also paid while they studied, this included young women. Sadly, it’s all changed now, thanks largely to the occupiers. They’re either wrecked, or unable to be staffed, and women are not ‘encouraged’ to attend these days? A discraceful situation that we are party to?

Aug 27th, 2009
red crab

Those who come by boat are usually from the Middle East or some such country that is in a state of war, for example Sri Lanka or Somalia, apart from Iran, Iraq and in larger numbers, Afghanistan. These people also have darker skin and often speak very little or no English. It has nothing to do with being “smarter”?
so whats the insentive for thease ppl to travel across many muslim countrys then pay lots of money to ppl smugglers to bring them on a dangerous trip in leaky boats.

here is a comment from sundays west

its about time the bleeding hearts faced reality and realised that around the world there are thousands upon thousands of reffugees waiting in camps for years for a better place to settle.

the boat people coming here are not truly poor refugees they are opportunists thumbing their noses at australias citizens and soverenty

the rudd govt its to blame for 600 illegals living very nicely on christmas island many of whom will be allowed to come to the mainland without anyone checking their real identity health problems or political agendas,.
as printed in the sunday times 30/8/2009.

i mite just go fishing againe before xmas just to see for myself .

Aug 31st, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

RED CRAB Is that last bit of your post from the Western Australia media? Who is saying this?

If we don’t want to have people coming here from their countries, then we shouldn’t co-operate either physically or politically or both, in the destruction of their countries by the US/Britain etc.Kofi Annan stated that the Iraq ‘war’ was illegal. Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11, in fact there’s still many questions re 9/11 that have not been answered, however, it’s obvious to many, that the people of Afghanistan have been the scapegoats of 9/11. It was a crime of horror, no doubt, but it should’ve been treated as such, not another or new Pearl Harbour. Further, the Bush Administration intended invading Afghanistan at the end of October anyway. As is coming clearer each week, the Bush Administration broke many rules, international laws, the Geneva Conventions..Somalia has OIL also!

Go to – From Afghanistan to Iraq-Connecting the dots with Oil – it’s on the Alternet website, along with many other articles. There’s another book called, ‘The New Pearl Harbour’ by David Griffin – very thought provoking. ‘Following them Home’ about deported asylum seekers from Australia.

Both Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice stated in mid 2001(TV recorded) that Saddam was neither a threat to his neighbours and certainly not to the US. Watch ‘Afghan Massacre’, Uncostitutional-the war on civil Liberties in America;and these are on http://www.freedocumentaries.org – more on the Bush and other administrations. Richard Clarke, who worked at the White House(inner circle) said they were ‘told’ to ‘find’ evidence of Saddam Hussein’s link with bin Laden – there was no link, they hated each other?
There’s ‘The Downing Street Memo(minute)’ that ties in Blair-there was obviously a decision by these three to spin a story for a ‘justifiable’ reason/s to invade Iraq-Howard was involved too!The only PM not to debate in Parliament prior to a decision to invade a sovereign country was Howard!Arrogance?

Aug 31st, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

RED CRAB – I have just downloaded the “A Last Resort” Report on the effects of detention on children in detention. I also have articles written by Julian Burnside QC who did lots of work pro bono for asylum seekers. This included working against the Howard Govt on the Tampa dispute; his putting up asylum seekers in his own home until they got permanent work or accommodation, particularly if they were on TPV’s. He used to think that asylum seekers were ‘illegals’ too, until he took the time to study the Law/s (including the UN Declaration on Human Rights – Article 14)Rights of the Child,International Laws, Migration Laws etc and the actual rights of people to seek asylum. He always emphasized the fact, that it is not ILLEGAL to seek asylum in this country(or any other for that matter) – he always spoke of how this misuse first by Howard etc and the media angered him. NOT TRUE, LIES! Deliberate lies that worked with too many people – some still peddle the lies, but that doesn’t change the fact, that they are LIES!

The trouble maker you quoted conveniently omits the perhaps 60,000 people who are here unlawfully – that is, they’ve overstayed their visa. They came by air as they could 1)apply for a visa 2) had the money to buy a plane ticket for themselves3)usually don’t come from a war torn (where we are in the ‘war’)country or some dictatorship. Often, families will pool their little bit of money, usually to save a younger person; some sell their own farms to do this and then become one of the millions of homeless(4 million Iraqis-2 million in Iraq, and 2 million in neighbouring countries).

There are other books about asylum seekers, ‘Dark Victory’ David Marr, Marian Wilkinson; ‘From Nothing to Zero’(written with imput from chn-one who said he came ‘from nothing to zero’ hence the name.) ‘Seeking Asylum’ by Heather Tyler. A recent one by Margot O’Neil (journalist ABC)(forget title).I borrowed most of these from my local library.

Aug 31st, 2009
Lorikeet

Red Crab:

Yes, it really is incumbent upon the United Nations to do something more about problems in various countries.

I have asked quite a few people who have come here from other countries if they would have stayed where they were if it were not for racial or political conflicts, or outright war.

No matter what their colour (black, white, brindle), the answer has been a unanimous “Yes”.

The main aim of those with a globalist agenda is to redistribute the world’s populations by any means possible, along with water, food, money, real estate etc and then bring in a regime of Global Corporate Socialism which will see an equalisation of peoples, that will consist of poverty, slave labour and abolition of all religions except neo-communism.

Sep 1st, 2009
ken

Dont you love the Bartlett website – dominated by two sets of opposing dot joining conspirasists…

Sep 1st, 2009
red crab

yep just gota drop in a bone now and then ken.

the facts are yes there are some ppl in the u.s. as in australia that somehow fall through the cracks in both our systyms .
but i would think at the time of there problems it would seem like the lowest pont in there lives .
but on the other hand there has been no comment on what compensation they recieved .
like some ppl in australia that have had like problems there compo was quite good and sometimes better than they would had done in there lives if it had not happend to them.
and there will allways be ppl who sensationalise these ppls storys to justify there own existance even if it means bending the truth a little for a good story .

RED CRAB Is that last bit of your post from the Western Australia media? Who is saying this?
j.m ford from leda
mabe hes just someone who see,s things a little different fom the minority. or mabe hes someone who knows a little more than you or me .

Sep 2nd, 2009
Lorikeet

Ken:

Many people are now well aware that a regime of Global Corporate Socialism is being put in place. Think of banks and their multi-national holdings.

Every week, we see examples of wages and working conditions being driven down, standards slipping, services dropping, taxes and charges increasing, assets and utilities being sold off, contracts going to foreign-owned companies, both Rudd and Obama looking for new ways to dispose of taxpayers’ money, increasing foreign debt, increasing competition for available work.

Sep 2nd, 2009
ken

Find me a decade Lorikeet when some people, acutally rephrase that to find me a century, weren’t prophesising the same sort of doom gloom and end of the world as we know it type stuff, within the context of the world as it was around them.

For instance can you ever remember a time when the health system wasn’t termianlly ill, in crisis, ready to collapse, I even wrote some of the reports about it 25 years ago for the NSW Government, and lo and behold people are living longer, health outcomes conitue to margianlly improve across the population.

But were still in crisis, for some its a comfortalbe state to be in, enables them to blame someone else for their own failings.

Some opeole just throive on crisis and doom

Sep 3rd, 2009
red crab

have to say this as i dont think that you get much news of whats gowing on over here.
there are over 600 MALE asylim seeker s on christmas island at the moment so far a small group has been sent to the mainland without any form of visa to melborne i think.

so where are the govt going to put the rest

the difference as far as i see things is that the ppl who come by boat are supported competly by the australian ppl
the ppl who come by other means usually support themselves.as they dont want to be deported.

Sep 8th, 2009
Togret

Red Crab – the people who came by boat who were put on Howard’s Bridging Visas were not allowed to work, not eligible for medical care, english language teaching, sometimes no education for themselves or their children, no social security, no assistance to settle into the community at all, except what was provided by variosu volunteer groups.

Temporary Protection Visa holders were eligible for some social security benefits but under stricter conditions than others in the community, not eligible for any assistance to find work untl 2003, need to pay full fees for TAFE, not eligible for english tuition, not eligible for assistance to settle into the community, etc etc. (http://www.hreoc.gov.au/human_rights/children_detention_report/report/chap16.htm)

The people you speak of who are there include 80 children, including unaccompanied minors, depite promises by Labor that children ought not to be held in detention. Saying they live in the community now means nothing – they are guarded 24/7 and live in a construction camp barracks, behind fences.

The issue of desperate families investing in trying to save their young men has been chewed over here and elsewhere for years. People take out loans, sell all they have, pool money from their extended family and send abroad young men, who might be safer when travelling, and who are often under threat of enforced military service, which they often don’t survive if their family is regarded by the authorities in their homeland as “political’ or if they are a religious or ethnic minority.

The people who don’t come by boat, who overstay tourist or student visas and who ’support themselves’ are breaking the law, and takign the jobs of australians. The boat people who are desperate to find a safe haven are not breaking the law if they meet the definition of a refugee and if supported to settle into the commuity the vast majority make great assets for our future. I know of 2 young people form Africa who are struggling t

Sep 8th, 2009
Togret

to finish high school after scanty education due to their minority status in their home country (they are christians) who attend school, go to a volunteer tutor’s home 4 afternoons a week for help with Maths and English, look after younger siblings while their parents go out to work at night, and work themselves on the weekends. They hope to become nurses – folk we badly need – and seem to have no time for bitterness about how they have been treated by us. They see themselves as Australians and hope to make a future life here in safety and peace through their own efforts.

Sep 8th, 2009
red crab

how many africans have come by boat
none.
so you know of two worthy reffugees come to perth and have a look around it mite suprise you at the african gangs that are here now that are starting to create some real problems in the community.
.
would someone please supply the facts as to what the govt really gives accepted refugees to help establish them into australia
from what iv herd its pritty good id try to come here if i lived in another country and could get what australians cant get in there own country .

please show me that the information i have been given and the opinions i have formed are wrong.

Saying they live in the community now means nothing – they are guarded 24/7 and live in a construction camp barracks, behind fences.

have you been to christmas island and had a look for yourself as to how they are guarded they are in the community given housing money and left to fend for themselves that i know ive seen it with my own eyes.

Saying they live in the community now means nothing – they are guarded 24/7 and live in a construction camp barracks, behind fences.

have you seen the camp its pritty good i suggest you go have a look
besides there are no ppl under the age of 18 there
but then agane how do you prove someones age with out some form of iddentification.

its interesting what has just been past thought the senate in the last couple of days .

Sep 9th, 2009
togret

red crab – your source for your information about no AFrican boat people is …..? I know these people. I don’t appreciate being called a liar.

Your source for your information about Xmas Island is.. ? I know you went there once, but unless you are a great swimmer, how do you get there? access is very difficult for most people .. hmmm, seems as if you have an agenda.

Sep 9th, 2009
Lorikeet

Red Crab:

What has been passed through the Senate in the last couple of days?

Sep 10th, 2009
red crab

togret
access is not that much of a problem to go to christmas island anytime
at all
they advertise trips from here every week $1458 holiday packages or $499 each way and you dont even need a passport.

i just like to seperate truth.from fiction just call it a hobby.

i tend to see things as they are not the way a few ppl would like the rest to see things.
iv been fishing there more than once and planning another before to long
iv seen the camps and the new detention centre not just photos from the media i have my own.

so nows your chance to inform me as to how many southern africans have come to australia with the help of ppl smugglers .via christmas island im shaw that ppl here would be interested.

Sep 10th, 2009
Lorikeet

In the Senate today, someone said something about 1300 new arrivals on 29 boats.

Sep 10th, 2009
togret

Red crab – I didn’t say they were southern africans, perhaps that’s where you got confused. Africa is a big place. I only know the circumstances of these two young people and their family .. they have friends in the community and I don’t know how many of them were unauthorised arrivals. They have all got visas now of various kinds, and thanks to the catholics they are going to school.

Sep 10th, 2009
togret

Lorikeet – red crab was possibly referring to the legislation passed that ended the practice of sending a bill for thousands of dollars to ex-deainees who were unauthorised arrivals or visa overstayers. The government said it was actually collecting less money than it cost them to run the scheme.

Sep 10th, 2009
red crab

some one has to argue the otherside of any debate so,s the truth will find a way to be seen .
i dont have a problem with anyone comming to australia to be australians .

but if you look around the world to other countrys that have a very diverse ethnic and religish population some of the problems that they have is a worry england , france serbia and yes half the african nations.

what makes the powers to be think that australia will be any different than other country,s .
then how long before we have more storys about deportation mistakes than america..

when you have conversations with the ppl who live on christmas island who see how ( some ) of thease ppl behave and say that ( quote you dont want these ppl in australia ) then the gov in it s wisdom lets them in anyway one starts to wonder .

some of the info as to how much help to get established ( if true ) is something that any average australian who has worked all there life could only dream about .
so far no one has botherd to publish the facts i wonder why
in my opinion thats where the resentment comes from .

the ppl who recive this help think that they get no more than every australian is intitled to .

theres no dout that australia could never be the place it is today without the ppl who were here first or the pp who came in the past .but we cant live in the past we must look to the future and be a wise country and learn from others mistakes and dont make them.

some of the stories i have been told from ppl who were actually at some of the events that happend out there would amaze you.

Sep 11th, 2009
red crab

heres something interesting for you.
To minister for illegat boat people
cris evans
having released over 300 illegal immigrants into australia can you tell us where they found accommodation when more than a million australians cant.?

as printed in the sunday times 13 sep 2009 .

Sep 13th, 2009
togret

YOu raise a very good point, red crab – just as the Refugee COuncil’s submission to the Parliamnt says: “Once humanitarian entrants exit the IHSS they often face difficulties in accessing suitable housing, facing barriers such as a shortage of public housing, discrimination from real estate agents, difficulties in completing paperwork and providing the documentation necessary to access the private rental market, and lack of affordable private housing in areas close to employment and community links. ” http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/RP/2008-09/09rp29.htm

Information re housing and visa holders:
http://www.housing.nsw.gov.au/Forms+Policies+and+Fact+Sheets/Topics/Migrants+and+Asylum+Seekers+or+Refugees.htm
As you would see if you read the information – refugees do not get priority over the homeless. Perhaps check before repeating edneck propaganda.

Sep 13th, 2009
red crab

other than being just nsw and that other states where most of the asylem seekers end up mite have the same rules . it would not seem to me to be to hard to get around any of those rules to aquire some housing with most of the cost picked up buy the tax payers.
as soon as they become permanent they go to the top of the list as regards to housing and other beniffits that they are entitled to
but what about the needy australians who have been waiting for many years to get some form of housing many who have worked all there lives and because of circemstanses that have come into there lives they need help

what do you say to them.
too bad !!

there are close to 50.000 ppl waiting for public housing in west australia alone and there,s less than 10% of the population here .

Sep 13th, 2009
togret

red crab – explain how you would get around the rules. How would a Somali family or a Hazara family “get around the rules’? Do you know that this is done? Have you reported this crime?

The way to get more housing for EVERYONE is to pressure the government, not pick on those who have very little themselves.

Sep 14th, 2009
red crab

emergencey tempory accomadation its not illegal just convenent . and a way around the rules dont have to be to smart to work that out just the abillity to read the rules .
besides that if the govt brings ppl to the mainland its the responsbility of the govt to house them..
somali and hasara ppl are accepted from there countrys or refugee camps therefore are eligble for priority housing as soon as the get here.

with another three boat loads this week alone and mostly males just where is the govt going to put them how are they going to support themselves
then just how long before theres trouble and we have simmilar probs as the americans .

i wonder what you would say if they all turned up in your suburb .

what interests me is just how silent the ppl who had so much to say in the past about this issue are now.

Sep 16th, 2009
togret

red crab – they _did_ all turn up in my suburb – I lived near Woomera at the time they were detained there. I visited people there and got to know them. Among them were Hazara people who were NOT assisted …clearly, because they were in detention. (I later visited them in Baxter, and met there the young african men I spoke of earlier, whose existence you deny.)

Again you make unsubstantiated allegations … with no evidence, just your own suppositions.

Sep 16th, 2009
red crab

so tell us just how did they come to australia .
by boat or other means ?

just what post did you or do you hold to be able to get into any of those places anyway.

Sep 17th, 2009
togret

Red Crab .. you don’t seem to read the answers others give you … and you never answer what is asked of you .. hmmmm … professional behaviour?

The people I kno/ew were boat people .. very few visa overstayers are locked up, in proportion to their numbers, a point others and I have been making for a long time on this forum.

With a bit of perseverance, and the support of some of those in official capacities, it was possible for ordinary members of the public like me to visit asylum seekers/detainees/refugees … this happened even in Woomera, and a bit more easily at Baxter. Many ordinary Australians did this, as well as church groups, school groups, all sorts of people – there were people who drove to Woomera from Melbourne to meet the refugees who’d been ‘adopted’ by families … hundreds of people wrote to them, organised care parcels of toiletries, clothes, books, toys, phone cards, stamps and writing paper even … do some research into ‘Rural Australians for Refugees’ and “Julian Burnside’ if you want to find out about people who opened their hearts and their homes to support people they saw as being poorly treated by the government.

I was able to get hold of some text books through personal connections, for someone who was completing his studies in applied maths when he had to flee his home, and helped with English lessons for others. We organised craft materials for some women to use when keeping their kids amused .. they were confined to one small area, because leaving the compound they were in to visit a friend meant a body search – an ordeal for anyone, and expecially so for those modest people.

Sep 17th, 2009
Tony

Togret:

Togret Says: I lived near Woomera at the time they were detained there

Wow, that is certainly a strange place to build one’s castle… As they say.
Whats the real estate market like there ? Night life etc ?

Tony

Sep 18th, 2009
togret

Woomera and the surrounding area have great beauty .. unfortunately not always appreciable from the more populous areas.

http://www.woomera.com.au/index.htm

The town is owned by the Commonwealth: not much of a real estate market, given that fact. Night life for us consisted of the more old-fashioned sorts of entrtainments we created ourselves, plus for those who require alcohol and noise, there are plenty of places not too far away.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/disney-world-meets-iraq-20081113-5zfu.html

There are quite a few pastoralists on the surrounding lands, who lease land from the C’wealth, and some Aboriginal people.

Sep 18th, 2009
red crab

thats very commendable tagret the most contact i have had was having a chat with a few of them on the jetty on christmas island while we were all fishing . they didnt seem to need anything i could offer them exept a kind word or two.
professional mm i dont think so niether a bleeding hart .

just someone who sees things mabe a little different than others

i have this problem of somehow being in the right or wrong place at the rite or wrong time depends on how you look at it .
i bet you drove up from melb to see for youself how the govt was treating these ppl and ended up getting involved . oh i do know how far it is to .
not as far or as hard to get to as christmas island but thats the reason the detention centre is out there to take the emotion out of the prossess. and the govt of the day elected buy the ppl regardles of there position on the issue has regained control from the courts .

lets think about this if the population grows as predicted today then the storys that we have herd from america and some from here will be nothing to what we will face in the near future.

Sep 18th, 2009
togret

red crab – you undermine your position at every turn. You said “i bet you drove up from melb to see for yourself how the govt was treating these ppl and ended up getting involved .” You seem to not have read that in response to your remark ” i wonder what you would say if they all turned up in your suburb .” I replied that they _did_ turn up on me, I was here first.

I had a fairly busy life here anyway, in fact, and was not too keen to get involved in something I foresaw would take up quite a deal of time. I began by assisting with the lists of people willing to write to detainees, of which there were hundred (detainees) and many hundreds (willing writers) .. some of whom morphed into ’spare room lenders’ and much more. I wrote to people myself, assisted in a small way many others with the organising of pro bono legal asistance … the distance from legal support was one of the main driving forces for putting people into such remote areas, and when popular support proved itself capable and willing to overcome the distances, extreme measures, such as Christmas Island, Nauru and Manus in PNG were employed by Howards, blowing his dog whistle for all he was worth. A low point in our aready abysmal history of relationship with people who don’t look like us. I ended up visiting, I am still in touch with a few people, and they continue to prove their worth for our country’s future.

Sep 19th, 2009
red crab

your right how can you be wrong .

for me il be back on the island an have a look for myself before the end of this year .
you want happy snaps il have a few.

Sep 19th, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

TOGRET – Good on you! I’m sure the people who you helped will never forget your acts of kindness. A friend of mine has had young men living in her house while they await a decision re their status. ! Then, after they’re accepted she helps them while they do a TAFE course or get a job or apprenticeship. She visits Villawood every week or fortnight, and is a very compassionate and caring person. I’m proud to know her. She’s also found legal/medical assistance and fills in forms etc. She’s told me of some really ‘bloody minded’ behaviour of Immigration employees, certainly under Howard! The young men who come here without any family are really in need of a family environment, not a bloody jail cell

Julian Burnside has also taken people into his home until they can get a job and a permanent place to live. His wife, who’s an artist, painted a mural with every person represented who died when the SIEV X overturned – 353 people, including many children. There are some really kind and compassionate people around. They help make up for the ‘others’! I recall the young man who was the last detainee on Manus Island? He’d been there for 7 years – that’s the jail term for a kidnapper and some people who’ve killed people, not those who seek asylum from torture and jail.

Sep 23rd, 2009
red crab

togret
thought you mite like to know this pro the reason they want to come here .
australian aged pensioner.

weekly alowance 453

weekly spouse allowance 56

weekly hardship allowance 00

16.068.00

overseas refugee living in australia

weekly allowance 472.50

weekly spouse allowance 472.50

weekly hardship allowance 145.00

56.580.00

interesting i think

no wonder the govt dosent make that easy to find .

add a couple of kids and it would be like winning the lotto worth the cost of any boat trip and a couple of months hardship.

Sep 23rd, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

RED CRAB – Single pensioners at the moment receive $575.00 per fortnight. As from next pension day (Oct 1st ‘09) we’ll get an increase of approximately $70 per fortnight – nowhere near $900 per fortnight? Where did you get your figures from? (I wish you were right – I can show you my credit union statements if you like, or those from Centrelink) I suggest you go to the Centrelink website. The different pension rates are there including carers allowance. I’ve never heard of asylum seekers receiving the amounts you state. Perhaps it’s like the stats people mouth re aboriginal people receiving – a nonsense!

Of course, we won’t include the Howard govt’s perks for those who receive over $100,000+ per year – with tax cuts and super surcharges removed; it amounted to $38 billion over 4 years?? Then there’s the $10 billion to the fossil fuel industry, lerks and perks for businesses(like subsidised energy and water costs paid for by taxpayers) and the $20 billion in subsidies etc to superannuation per year? I know who’s doing very well thank you, and it’s certainly not any pensioner totally dependent on Centrelink payments – like me! It’s middle and upper middle income welfare. Even millionaires were receiving family benefits, and the wealthy schools have millions in the bank and will have more when the next round of funds are handed over.

Those asylum seekers who used to be put on TPV didn’t get any income at all; couldn’t get medical help under Medicare, and couldn’t do a TAFE course. If not for charity they starved and had to live on the streets, then they’d be ‘moved on’ for loitering etc! I’d suggest, that those granted asylum would receive unemployment/sole parent/sickness benefit/disability (if applicable) and family benefits if they had kids. No more, no less than other Australians!

Sep 23rd, 2009
Lorikeet

Red Crab:

Yes, your figures are really shot. If Naomi and I received that kind of money, we’d be off to the Bahamas, not arguing with you.

Naomi also makes an excellent point about middle class welfare, which continues to suck the lifeblood out of our public hospitals and schools.

I hope Tony is reading this, along with his overpaid mates who think they are poor.

Sep 23rd, 2009
red crab

neally 300 refugees came to christmas island this week alone .and the conditions for sea travel out there are not good yet.
there no dout that these ppl are mostly good ppl but just how many spare rooms do you have .

we are farely lucky that we are surruonded by sea just imagine if we were not.
we have some sort of control at the moment but not for very much longer .

i think it dose not mater what view we have on this subject we all can see whats happening now and it s not the same as in the past .

oh buy the way my sorse out there says that the ppl who live there are not happy because the boat ppl are getting priority over the locals.

as far as the benefits they get prove me wrong .

Sep 24th, 2009
togret

As others have said, red crab, if you want your figures to be discussed as if they are believable, you might care to provide your source. We can’t prove wrong what you have presented in a mish-mash, all unsourced. What do 16.068.00 and 56.580.00 mean? You have clearly pasted it in from somewhere else. If you want people to take you seriously, cite a credible source.

You also said we are farely lucky that we are surruonded by sea just imagine if we were not. That is just the point people who understand the world-wide movement of refugees make .. we ARE surrounded by sea, and get a tiny trickle of the world’s refugees coming to our shores. Most of the countries that take in hundreds of thousands annually are poor themselves, yet they share what they have.

If refugees do get extra services when they arrive, such as English lessons, dental and medical services, it is because they have greater needs. Survivors of trauma and torture have not, as you seem to think, strolled casually to a boat and had a peaceful trip, something like the one you say you take to Xmas Island. Perhaps you’d better look up some facts before you shoot your mouth off.

http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/arp/faqs.html

Sep 24th, 2009
togret

red crab – you might also care to enquire into WHY Hazaras, who are in great numbers in the recent influxes, according to the news, flee their homelands – mainly Iran, Pakistan and substantially Afghanistan. Perhaps you might have some understanding of what a person goes through to be forced to leave everything they know. Contrary to what you seem to think, there are not people on the other side of the world planing to become fake refugees just so they can sponge on you.

Sep 25th, 2009
john thomas

As usual, the people that will lap up this type of crap are the ones, haven’t been to the USA, or if they have lived there long enough to understand the political process.
The fascist, dole budging morons who eagerly feed on this type of yank bashing B.S., so eagerly promoted by self seeking wankers, such as the author of this article.
I notice that there is a statistical article giving the roles and types of crime statistics so eagerly lapped up by the uninitiated, linked at the top of this article, a Home Simpson so aptly says doh!! I wonder why?
The facts are that the for all its flaws , the usa has at least a democratic process that Australia is yet to equal or even come close to understanding.
The 2 party processes are so ingrained in ozzie lifestyle that the right wing is socialist.
Australia the land of bullshit what joke. Keep standing I it a far as am concerned they country is run by bunch of fascist wankers.

Sep 26th, 2009
red crab

only one thing to say now

the road is long and full of danger but the prize is worth it .

Sep 27th, 2009
togret

May you never have to live through what they have suffered.

Sep 27th, 2009
red crab

thank you.

Sep 28th, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

JOHN THOMAS – “The facts are that the for all its flaws , the usa has at least a democratic process that Australia is yet to equal or even come close to understanding.” What nonsense. Both the major political parties are very closely involved in all tiers of government elections. Watch ‘How Bush Won Florida’ (2000) There has been much evidence to prove, that those in poorer areas have been actively discouraged from voting -can’t get to polling booths, names not on the list etc. The Judge who made the decision not to either recount all the votes or even continue the count, was the Republican’s campaign person in Florida? Call that ‘democratic’? There’s also been many accusations of computerised voting being ‘hacked’? Dems and Reps?They’re both just different sides of the same coin, similar to our major political parties – Labor just introduces a few ’sweeteners’ like increase in pensions etc. We’re still killing people in Afghanistan who are and never were any threat to us or the US.

At least in Australia, elections are not run by politicians or political parties. In fact,(Andrew can back me on this) a candidate must not wear advertising on his/her person inside a polling booth(I recall Pat Farmer(lib)having to turn his T-shirt inside out -he was a candidate for House of Reps); must not be anywhere near where votes are counted(will be disqualified)and even scrutineers MUST NOT touch ballot papers, otherwise, they’re out too. Every person in this country is given every encouragement and venue to vote, including the most remote areas; they’re accessed by air, car or boat!Doesn’t happen in the US, and mostly the voter turnout is patheticly small.

The US govt is run by big business for big business.

Sep 28th, 2009
red crab

and you think that is not the case here .

Sep 30th, 2009
Lorikeet

John Thomas:

The right wing is socialist? Tee hee. I guess you’ve never heard of John Howard.

Naomi:

Yeah, computerised voting was a schmozzle. Does the USA have compulsory voting or not?

Red Crab:

Good one. Australia seems pretty corrupt to me. The government even sells our national assets to anyone interested.

Oct 1st, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

LORIKEET – No, the US does not have compulsory voting. In fact, except for the last election, they usually have problems getting more than 40% to get of their bums and vote. The world’s biggest democracy? What a joke?

RED CRAB – Sadly, it is the same here too! However, unlike the US we haven’t invaded/interfered with over 40 countries since the end of WW2. We’re not quite as brazen about invading countries, planting dictators and stealing their recources, except for Howard’s disgusting behaviour re East Timor’s oil and gas reserves?Oh yes, I forgot Indonesia and some other close neighbours???

Oct 6th, 2009
red crab

wow i didnt know that naomi
i was with the understanding that men have been invading others since they first stood erect and walked on two feet.
right or wrong depending who you are
thats the reason the world you live in is as it is today.
america is not the biggest democracy .

Oct 7th, 2009
crime req

Isnt there 12 or 20 million illegal migrants in America? More Americans are killed by illegal migrants than those killed in the Islamic September 11 attacks.

It is disgusting how Bartlett and others trivialise these numerous deaths of true Americans.

Oct 7th, 2009
ken

naomi – some say the right to not vote is the purest form of democratic choice.

Others of course disagree – demos measn the people in greek and kratia measn rules – hecne the word.

I’m not sure that sheep dip voting (or at least attending) is any better than free will – pollies of course like the compulsory attendacne it make sis so much easier to keep things at the lowest common denominator level.

Oct 7th, 2009
Andrew Bartlett

Wow Crime Req, that’s got the most feeble angle yet to try to smear illegal migrants in the USA (and anyone who decides to stand up to those who hatemonger about them).

Firstly, what about the thousands of Americans killed by Americans? Don’t they count? Why do you trivialise the deaths of these true Americans.

Secondly, your statement regarding the numbers of Americans “killed by American illegal migrants” is a lie.

The number of murders in the USA a year is around about 15 000. To suggest that more than 20% of those were killed by “illegal migrants” is simply fanciful.

However, statistics do show the murder rate in the USA per number of residents is at 50 year lows, so obviously having an increased number of “illegal migrants” hasn’t led to more murders.

There are plenty of differing arguments which people can validly make for and against immigration – flagrant and dishonest vilification is not one of them. And I might add, is also against some of the most fundamental founding principles of the USA.

Please go crawl back under your rock and leave public debate to people who are mature enough to engage in it.

Oct 7th, 2009
franklin

The following is a very interesting article on failed asylum seekers in the United Kingdom and the problems encountered with their removal from the country:

Hundreds of failed asylum seekers escape deportation every year by throwing tantrums at the airport.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-486012/Failed-asylum-seekers-escape-deportation-throwing-tantrums.html

Oct 8th, 2009
togret

Franklin: Of what relevance is this 2 year old article about another country, which has an entirely different asylum-seeker problem from ours? (Australia’s, that is)

Oct 8th, 2009
Bob

Togret, the ‘relevance’ of Franklin’s otherwise irrelevant and factually dubious link is the same ‘relevance’ as every other time he has left comments on this site about asylum seekers. His intent is to vilify and defame asylum seekers and other so-called ‘illegal’ migrants wherever possible and to misrepresent international refugee laws and processes. I won’t speculate on why someone would want to foster such attitudes but he is certainly consistent.

Oct 8th, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

FRANKLIN – You are living proof of the fact, that when people can’t put forward a concise and adult argument to support their assertions, they must fall back on lies and insults. You are a living breathing example of what lies and hatred do to people. In Australia, we’re smarter than those to whom you allude to; we drug people prior to ‘placing’ them on a plane. In the past, our govt has lied, used false passports(of which they participated in – Howard yrs) and didn’t give a toss about what happened to them after they left our shores. Vivien Alvarez-Solon is one case in point. What made her case so revolting, was that the Brisbane office of the Immigration Dept were told that she was an Australian citizen; but they put her on a plane, alone, to the Phillipines anyway.

What’s worse, is that the Immigration Dept were ‘reminded’ in the next couple of yrs that she was an Australian citizen(which, for those who haven’t joined the dots – she should not have been deported?) and yet they were still OK with the decision they made, and didn’t care if she lived or died. If she was a white Australian, this would not have happened. Also, while it took her case and that of Cornelia Rau for the people to come out of their apathetic slumber, their outrage still has not permeated through to the rest of the world – to wit, one man from Vietnam, who as an Australian citizen spent 3 yrs locked up in Villawood Detention Centre! No wonder racism is repugnant to me!

FRANKLIN – There are up to 60,000 people in the country at this minute, but who came here by plane and have overstayed their visas, and when confronted plead asylum – they’re usually not locked up while awaiting a decision on their ‘genuiness’. These are the majority, who are not poor, wheras those smaller numbers who arrive in leaky boats are poor and traumatized. Howard invited this country into the revolting atmosphere of racial hatred – sadly, people like you still haven’t woken up! Do some reading for god’s sake!

Oct 8th, 2009
red crab

international refugee laws
question just how long ago were these laws pend and what relivence do they have on today.

how long ago were they signed and by who and for what reasions.

and why have they not bean changed to represent the present world problems .

mabe it because like most things now its an industry and only about money and too bad about the cosequenses and future problems.

Oct 10th, 2009
crime req

I mean in the years between 2002 and 2009 Illegal migrants have killed more than 3000 Americans.

Oct 10th, 2009
crime req

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103

Oct 10th, 2009
togret

This statement in your article says it all, really .. “Though no federal statistics are kept on murders or any other crimes committed by illegal aliens ..” … this and other such statements as “If those numbers are correct..”, “While no one – in or out of government – tracks all U.S. accidents caused by illegal aliens, the statistical and anecdotal evidence suggests many of last year’s 42,636 road deaths involved illegal aliens.” identify your somments as part of a fear campaign.

Whom does this help? and what possible relevance does this have to Australia, which has a completely different set of borders, historical relationships with its neighbours and, for that matter, population size and climatic challenges than USA, where this slime was manufactured. Why even come to this site? How would persuading the bloggers here of the truth of your cause make the slightest difference to the Immigration policies of USA?

Take your aluminium foil hat off, old chum, and peddle your slime elsewhere, would be my advice.

Oct 10th, 2009
Andrew Bartlett

Togret has already demolished your vilification efforts very effectively, Crime Req.

There is also the real statistic (as opposed to your shonky ones) which show murder rates have gone down as illegal immigrant numbers have gone up. Immigrants are just people, with all their variety of faults and talents. Your lack of interest or concern in Americans who kill other Amercians, while wanting to attack crimes by illegal immigrants, shows a very distorted world view

Oct 11th, 2009
red crab

quik to jump onto something that is easy to defend but silence on a question that should be asked .

but as i have stated its all about money now and to hell with the future

Oct 12th, 2009
togret

Red Crab – are you seriously asking the question about the 1951 Convention and 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees? There is some inforamtion here

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/61asylum.htm

and here is a link to information debunking the myth of the refugee ‘queue’ ..

http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/21710/

I think that before commenting in any issues – particularly ones like immigartion where so much misinformation is peddled – we owe it to ourselved to become informed. The local newspaper is often either ignorant or deliberately inflaming misunderstandings .. you have to ask yourself why.

Oct 12th, 2009
ken

Togret I think our Red is a little bit smarter than some might assume or he portrasy at times.

The question was not that they existed, he well knows that, it was more the relevance of them in todays environeemnt.

The dates yuo correctly quoted probably give some credecne to the question

Oct 12th, 2009
togret

Ken – nothing wrong with looking at the law now (because, like it or not, we have passed a law saying we will adhere to the Convention on how to treat refugees — even though we don’t actually do that nowadays) to see if it fits our current circumstances.

I’d like to see it done with the right intent, though. I hear in W.A. the same old noises about “people different from us” .. that’s what they said about the Irish, the Greeks, the Italians, the Vietnamese when they first came .. “they won’t fit in” … and then you look at eminent businessfolk, medical, academic, religious, etc folk whose ancestors came from far away, as well as salt of the earth folk like most of mine. Some came a long time ago, some only recently .. they are all people.

Yes we have to be careful – we have only somuch water and fertile land, and even if we turned around our current mismanagement and evened out our social structure a bit more, thei poor old dusty, tired land can only support so many.

We should be looking in a self-interested way, as well as in a humanitarian way, at working out ways to assist people who need to flee in such a way tha they can stay where they are. Iraq was a rich source of refugees a while ago .. will the war there end up with some sort of peace and no need to flee? I hope so, but not too confidently.

Look at what’s happening in Sudan, another war where religion is being used as one excuse for killing in a grab for land, water and power. Could we assist in setting up a locally-based move for peace-making, coming form the region but backed by us, among others? Or locally, Burma and Sri Lanka provide places where we could perhaps try to mend matters so that people don’t need to escape.

Why are fearful people so sure that refugees would not prefer to live comfortably in the land of their ancestors, if given a chance for peace there? Let’s talk about this, fine; but with compassion and intelligence – not hate and fear.

Oct 12th, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

CRIME REQ – 45,000 Americans die each year because they don’t have health insurance. Goodness knows how many who are insured but a knocked back for some frivolous reason/s. They’re allowed to die. Why aren’t you advocating for the poor and sick in the US, instead of your selective behaviours of using nebulous nonsense.

There’s how many murders via a gun every minute in the US? I’d strongly suggest, that if you want to use frilovous and incorrect stats, you might look into this stat. I’d suggest, that there’d be less murders in the US if they tightened up their gun laws – they’re the real threat to people.

The infant mortality rate in Cuba is better than that in the US. The infant mortality rate in indigenous communities is much higher than the rest of the community. Why aren’t you advocating about that?

Oct 12th, 2009
red crab

thanks togret and ken

you have done well
those 1951 Conventions and 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees should have been looked at every 10yrs since they were intridused . because things change .
now if it was something like extra shopping time or mabe daylight saving they would have been revisited ever year. but because there are more countrys in the u.n. that beniffit from the satus quo that it has not been looked at and it needs to be.

tagret i try to not comment on things i dont look into first but sometimes i like to ask questions .

i had more first hand info than most other ppl when the tampa incident was going on and i have spoken to someone from the bording party that was pressent during the children overboard tragedy

just right place right time sort of thing

niether the govts or the media storys come anywere close to what iv been told .

i was told at least 5yrs ago which country the ppl would be comming from when they were building the facillity out there amazingly accurate .
the thing is that in my humble opinion i think that there will be more trouble here than we could imagine in the future and i think we would be nieve and arrigant to think that we would be any different to other countrys that have the problems the now.

as a country we should be looking inward and fixing our own problems first.

Oct 13th, 2009
franklin

Naomi Carttledge: take a deep breath and reread carefully what you have written about me:

FRANKLIN – You are living proof of the fact, that when people can’t put forward a concise and adult argument to support their assertions, they must fall back on lies and insults. You are a living breathing example of what lies and hatred do to people.

This is a quite a statement considering you do not know me or know anything about me. Could it be that the reason you resort to personal abuse is simply that I have opinions contrary to yours. I would be most grateful if you could desist in personal abuse and instead provide examples of these so-called “lies and insults”. And do you include the information in the article regarding failed asylum seekers who escape deportation every year by throwing tantrums at the airport as also being “lies and insults”.

You state that “There are up to 60,000 people in the country at this minute, but who came here by plane and have overstayed their visas, and when confronted plead asylum”. This implies that you freely admit that the asylum process is being manipulated on a large scale by unlawful non citizens who use it as a means for remaining in Australia – most interesting. Please inform us what do you think can be done about this problem. And what is your solution to the problem of failed asylum seekers who refuse to leave the country although they have no legal right to remain.

I would appreciate a logical and reasoned response instead of personal abuse.

Oct 13th, 2009
Andrew Bartlett

Franklin asks “what is your solution to the problem of failed asylum seekers who refuse to leave the country although they have no legal right to remain?”

I don’t know what Naomi’s views are, but this ‘problem’ is already addressed. Those whose asylum claims who are unsuccessful and who are not entitled to any other visa are removed (assuming they don’t go voluntarily as the vast majority do).

This graph from The Australian shows that of boat arrivals ni the last 13 months, 687 have been recognised as refugees and 101 whose claims have been finally rejected have left – 3 involuntarily.

There is no problem. I don’t why you would want to suggest there is.

As for Naomi’s statement about the 60 000 overstayers who “when confronted plead asylum”, I would point out that the statistics show differently. Most overstayers who are detected depart fairly promptly. Some try to regularise their status by applying for another visa. Few put in a refugee claim – most that seek to go down this path put in a claim before their visa expires. Overstaying of visas is a small problem – not linked to boat arrivals at all – and handled far better in Australia than virtually any other country.

Oct 13th, 2009
togret

red crab – I don’t think it takes great intelligence to work out that when there are wars there will be refugees – Sri Lanka (in our vicinity) and Afghanistan (where we are participants in the war creating the refugees) seem to be contributing most of the asylum seekers we have been receiving lately by boat. If somene said that 5 years ago, I am not surprised that they might have predicted accurately.

If you look at visa overstayers they represent an entirely different set of countries of origin … as has been said many times before.

Your dark hints about knowing much more than you can ever say about the underlying motives or facts surrounding the arrivals of boat people will get no credibility unless you can bring forward some support. No disrespect at all, but that’s an old trick “Oh, I could tell you much more, but you’ll have to take my word for it – I am bound by the Official Secrets Act.”

If you are in fact bound by some secrecy oath, I wonder if you should not just say nothing .. you seem to want to run with hare and hounds. If not, and you have a whistle to blow- I feel sorry for you. That’s not an enviable position to be in.

This is my last post here – I need to return Back Over East – a family member needs my help.

Oct 14th, 2009
red crab

togret
why would i want you to take my word for anything im just saying that you mite want to dig a little deeper .
there are no secrets just the trust of some ppl i know who were there.

there is no old trick im just implying that the media and the gvt rearly tell the truth and only a fool would take anything they say on face value without looking for some adgenda. as for me im nothing more than someone who is interested i have no adgenda .the only reasion i comented on some things is because i have been there and seen for myself.unlike some others.

anyway hope all gos well with your family togret.

as for the problems america has australia would be foolish to think that its not going to happen here and even more foolish to asume that we could do any better.

Oct 14th, 2009
Naomi Cartledge

Congratulations Andrew on receiving your award. I didn’t catch the actual ‘title’ of it, but I know that it’s to do with all your hard work and commitment to the care and human rights of asylum seekers! Good for you! Glad that you’ve received acknowledgement! You restore my faith in humanity! Thank you!

Oct 14th, 2009
franklin

In his discourse Andrew Bartlett’s premise is that the administration of immigration laws in Australia and the USA are unjust and dysfunctional. As an outside observer with a particularly strong point of view it would be natural for him to come to that conclusion. However, has he ever considered the myriad of practical difficulties of running an immigration system. Those in the system need to be treated with dignity, but do they not also have a responsibility and obligation to obey the laws of the country they are in. If they are found not to be in need of protection are they not obligated to leave the country. As an example, what practical and humane and workable solution could Andrew Bartlett suggest to the problem highlighted in my above comments regard failed asylum seekers who escape deportation every year by throwing tantrums at the airport in the UK’s immigration system.

Oct 21st, 2009
franklin

In the UK many failed asylum seekers attempt to escape deportation by throwing tantrums at the airport:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-486012/Failed-asylum-seekers-escape-deportation-throwing-tantrums.html

Does Andrew Barlett agree that asylum seekers have a responsibility and obligation to obey the laws of the country they are in, and if they are found not to be in need of protection are they not obligated to leave the country.

What practical and humane and workable solution could Andrew Bartlett suggest to solve the problem in regard to these failed asylum seekers who seek to evade deportation.

Oct 27th, 2009
Andrew Bartlett

That link is the same as you posted it the first time Franklin. I prefer to rely on something other than the UK Daily Mail for factual interpretation of events. You should try it sometime.

I presume your question as to whether I have “ever considered the myriad of practical difficulties of running an immigration system” is just a rhetorical one. Some of the laws in place today in this area are there because of my considerations, and I have repeatedly stated that migration is a difficult and complex area – asylum seekers issues even more so.

This is precisely why adopting an approach based on kneejerk responses to tabloid distortions and hatemongering is irresponsible as a matter of good public policy and administration, even before you consider issues like injustice and harm to individual human beings.

Taking your questions on face value:

1. Do I agree that asylum seekers have a responsibility and obligation to obey the laws of the country they are in?

Yes. So does the government of the country they are in, as do the officers who act on the authority of the Govt.

2. If asylum seekers are found not to be in need of protection are they not obligated to leave the country?

The major problem with people not leaving the country when they are obligated are visa overstayers, not unsuccessful asylum seekers. Focusing on asylum seekers for political or pejorative reasons diverts resources from more significant problems. Instances of unsuccessful asylum seekers trying to then disappear in the community are extremely rare in Australia, so there is little point discussing a ‘problem’ which doesn’t exist (unless someone is just trying to smear and hatemonger, which I’m sure is not the case with you, Franklin).

Any person who is not eligible for a visa entitling them to remain in the country should depart. Of course, many refugee claimants who are found not to engage Australia’s obligations under the Refugee Convention are none the less determined to be suitable for the grant of a visas on other grounds. Unsuccessful refugee claimants are a minority of those required to depart Australia.

3. What practical, humane and workable solution(s) do I suggest to solve the problem in regard to failed asylum seekers who seek to evade deportation?

As noted in the above answer, this is a minimal “problem” in Australia, particularly when you factor in the far greater numbers of people who try to remain in Australia without authorisation. It is also irrelevant whether the person who is subject to deportation was unsuccessful in an asylum claim or is without a visa for a range of other reasons (unless someone is just trying to score political points by demonising and smearing all asylum seekers as a group in which case it’s not a genuine question about immigration laws and administration, but just an attempt to generate antagonism towards a vulnerable group relying on ignorance and misrepresentation – I’m sure Franklin isn’t doing that here though).

The situation of forcibly refusing deportation occurs very rarely in Australia and it would be distorting debate and public perception to try to pretend it is a significant issue – but I’m sure Franklin isn’t doing that.

However, I don’t wish to be falsely accused of trying to avoid a question – even a hypothetical one. The rare occurrences where a person forcibly resists deportation from Australia raise difficult issues which should be dealt with on a case by case basis. Whether the person had made a refugee claim or not is irrelevant – the circumstance is that they have no lawful right to remain in Australia.

Such cases should be treated on their individual merits – which befits their rarity. Australia in the past has deported people to places who have not been prepared to receive them, or using invalid documentation. The UK recently had the embarrassment of forcibly deporting a group of Iraqis, and having the majority of them refused entry by Iraq and have to be returned. Such is the risk of forcibly deporting people for a political spectacle, without bothering about lawful procedure.

Experience shows that threatening and brutalising people in an effort to force them to leave is often counter-productive. Usually giving people a fair go and due process from the start means they are more willing to leave if they are unsuccessful – I’d recommended the UK should give that a try. Experience in Australia shows that when people have been treated fairly and humanely and openly from the start, they are more likely to accept the outcome even when it is unsuccessful.

In an Australian context in the very rare case where people still refuse to leave voluntarily, it is practical and workable (and also humane as it turns out) to spend the extra time negotiating with the person concerned and using organisations with wide experience in such matters, such as the IOM. IOM is engaged throughout the world in arranging the movement of people, but does not engaged in physically forcible removals. Engaging with people as human beings, rather than as anonymous dehumanising labels almost always works better.

Oct 27th, 2009

Reply to “Immigration detention and deportation in the USA”

Mini Posts

Radio chat on the election

Every Monday morning during my radio show on community radio 4ZzZ FM, I chat with Peter Black, a constitutional lawyer, follower of social and political issues and obsessive user of social media. I don’t normally put links to those chats on this blog, but given that our talk this morning was all about the federal election, I thought it was worth putting a link to it on this occasion. You can have a listen to it by clicking on this link.

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Pre-election 'Debate' Farce

Given I am now running as a Greens candidate, I suppose it is no surprise that I am indicating my agreement with a comment that Bob Brown made today. But I would also say that it isn’t any secret that I haven’t agreed with every public comment that Bob has made, and I would agree with the following comment about the schoolyard level nonsense regarding another possible leaders debate even if it had been made by Steve Fielding:

“What we’re seeing now between the two leaders is an absolute farce and people everywhere are rolling their eyes at Tony Abbott and Julia Gillard not having the maturity to get together to agree to the series of debates which would have enlightened the electorate,“

It is a joke and a sad reflection on the optic and image driven nature of political media coverage in Australia. A couple of weeks ago, there was a three way debate at the National Press Club on important ICT issues such as internet filtering, broadband and wider communications policy.

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Mountains of Coal

A couple of years ago I wrote a blog post about mountaintop mining in the USA. All mining has some impact, but the sheer destructiveness of this type of mining is astonishing – and that’s before you take into account the greenhouse impact of the coal. This article in the New York Times details the potential impact of a similar project in West Virginia. The significance of this proposal is that there is the possibility it may be stopped, or seriously curtailed, by the Obama administration, which would be a signal of a positive shift on this issue.

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Recent Interviews

Following are links to a couple of recent radio interviews I’ve done, plus an online one

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Piece on The Drum about challenges ahead for the Greens

As I noted in my previous post, this week’s Newspoll saw the Greens register 16% support – the highest that party has ever achieved, comparable to the Democrats best Newspoll result of 17% back in 1990. History suggests it is unlikely that this peak will be maintained right through to election day (or even the next Newspoll) but it is part of a continuing trend of solid Greens results. I’ve written a piece expanding on this, and how the party might approach the challenges ahead, at The Drum/Unleashed on the ABC’s site – which you can read by clicking on this link.

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Wild Rivers

Contention over Queensland’s Wild Rivers legislation has been bubbling along for quite a while now. Unfortunately, as with many issues which become polarised, each “side” is focused on defending their position, which has meant that some important underlying issues are not getting the attention they deserve. I’ve just had a piece on this topic published at The Drum on the ABC’s website. It’s fairly long, so they published it in two parts – the first part is at this link and the second part is at this one. I should emphasise that the article reflects my personal views, and is not a formal view of the Greens, nor of ANTaR Queensland, who I am also involved with.

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Listen in to Choose Mics

Hip hop fans in Brisbane might be interested in tuning in to my radio show on 4ZZZ FM this Monday morning around 7:30am. I’ll be talking with the Gold Coast based duo Choose Mics, who are launching their debut full length album Beggars Can’t Be Choosers at the Step Inn in the Valley this coming Friday night as part of what will be a big night for fans of hip-hop/rap/urban sounds, with Brisbane’s The Optimen also launching their second album “The Out of Money Experience” as part of the same event. Even though there is a steady stream of musical offerings in Brisbane, a double album launch of this magnitude doesn’t come along every day of the week, so I’ll dedicate a half hour or so to exploring not just the words and sounds of Choose Mics, but getting a broader overview from them of the hip hop related scenes locally and nationally.

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