White Ribbon Day gathering in Queen St Mall
Brisbane’s Queen Street Mall will be the site for a gathering of hundreds of men on Wednesday of next week as part of the build up to White Ribbon Day.
Former star of the (sadly now defunct) Brisbane Bullets basketball team, Leroy Loggins, will MC the event, which goes from 12.30 to 1.30. Men from a range of backgrounds will speak about violence against women from their perspective as a digger, a Muslim, a police officer, an aboriginal man, and a young man.
White Ribbon Day is on 25th November and marks the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. I’ve provided some support to it on different occasions in the past. Encouraging individual men to be publicly supportive of the issue and recognising the individual stake we all have in opposing violence against women can be a very powerful thing. Sitting back and leaving it up to government to ‘do something’ or assume it’s all up to others is a common affliction when it comes to responding (or not responding) to many social ills.
165 Comments, Comment or Ping
Iain Hall
Why do you support this event which is just an excuse for more misandry?
Domestic violence is of course a terrible thing but to lay the entirety of the blame at the collective feet of men is a gross distortion of the reality.
I suggest that you read some of the writings by Erin Pizzey on the matter.
Nov 9th, 2008
Bob
Mr Hall is presumably just trying to start a flame war with his ridiculous statement that the White Ribbon campaign opposing violence against women is “just an excuse for more misandry” – that is, a man-hating campaign.
I suggest people treat such statements with the contempt they deserve and just ignore him.
Nov 9th, 2008
Iain Hall
No Bob I am not trying to start any kind of flame war. i am trying to promote a more realistic understanding of domestic violence than the one promoted by “White ribbon day“and to suggest that the causes of domestic violence are more nuanced that the shallow reasons claimed by the promoters of this event.
Nov 10th, 2008
Bob
so it’s promoting a ‘realistic’ and ‘nuanced’ understanding of domestic violence to say that White Ribbon Day is man-hating and shallow?
right.
turkey
Nov 10th, 2008
Iain Hall
Bob
I have had this argument before and i know what i am talking about and I think that you do not have a clue.
Nov 10th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
Thanks BOB!
Iain Hall – You’re the one who doesn’t “have a clue”. Do you even know why White Ribbon Day started, by whom and when? Have you read any of the stats in NSW alone? Did you know that every 4 days a woman dies in Australia as a result of domestic violence? Have you looked at the ABS Stats on murders and crimes of violence? The ‘reasons’ for female murders, who commits the majority as opposed to those of men? Did you know that 25% of women will experience domestic violence in their lives -that’s every 4th home or every 4th unit in a complex? Do you know that domestic violence costs this country at least $7 billion to business (employment etc)per yr, and that doesn’t include medical costs, hospital and counselling;the police, legal costs, re-housing, poverty induced by having to ‘run’ another or new home? Did you know, that a large number of women experience violence for the first time during their pregnancy – these women are often in the abortion stats or those who have difficult pregnancies? Did you know, that frequently, women have been charged with a crime of violence, due to the males assertions, and that too frequently, there is no investigation of whether the ‘bruises’ are due to self defence, or even a sense of ‘getting in first’ due to past experiences?I haven’t mentioned those families living on the streets due to a lack of affordable housing?
The issue of violence towards women (and children) is rife around the world. It’s predominantly males who use physical & sexual violence in wars; oppressive regimes; and that the damage done to kids who witness violence (even when they are not physically injured) is also recognised as child abuse,which can last a lifetime. Majority of criminals suffered abuse as a child, as do drug takers etc?
I don’t know what planet you’re on mate, but it sure as hell has little to do with reality! How many women who’ve survived DV have you engaged with? I suggest none or few! You need to rectify that! SOON!
Nov 10th, 2008
LORIKEET
Everyone:
We cannot get away from the fact that some men are also the victims of domestic violence.
I know that Iain’s ideas have some foundation in fact. There are quite a number of dangerous, abusive women around. Some are quite happy to display this abuse towards their boyfriends/spouses in public places. Sometimes they are twice the size of the man.
Why don’t they have a White Ribbon Day for ALL abused people, instead of just women and children?
While we continue to live in a laissez faire “Me Syndrome” society, I think there will continue to be plenty of unresolved social ills.
I am sure there are quite a few men who feel they are being discriminated against on White Ribbon Day.
Nov 10th, 2008
Dolphins
Erin Pizzey did some good things, but sadly has continued in her later years to fight against some straw women, who, if they ever represented real people, ceased to exist in the late 70s. There are fewm if any, separatist feminists thee days. few of them have any involvement in such movements as the struggle against domestic violence, and the ongoing effort to provide women forced to flee their family home because of violence. What a pity Pizzey has moved on to create headlines instead of continuing to work with/for real victims of violence. Sometimes success can go to a person’s head. Compare Pizzey with someone like Edna Ryan, who worked tirelessly for women for many years – not big-noting herself, just getting on with it.
Everyone knows that woemn can be violent, and that some have injured men … but nobody is saying “all men are violent” nor are they saying that no women are – straw men, hyperbole … infallible signs of an argument lacking any substance.
Nov 10th, 2008
Iain Hall
Naomi Cartledge
I certainly do and I had this same argument in 2006.
Yes Have seen the statistics, some of which give a self-serving distortion of the facts due to the methodology used or the sources cited.
Gosh, where did you dig up this claim? source please
Source once again please I can not accept your assertions on face value.
How does that relate to domestic violence?
Nov 11th, 2008
Bob
No, no flame wars here, hey Iain.
Just your nuanced voice of reason against us rabid man-haters.
If people keep feeding the troll, it gets to keep bellowing
Nov 11th, 2008
LORIKEET
There’s an ad on TV which is aimed at preventing domestic violence, but whenever I see it, I start asking myself some questions.
It says something about “controlling who she sees … controlling where she goes … controlling what she wears .. controlling what she spends”.
If my spouse was spending the mortgage money on gambling or expensive clothing, I think I’d be having something to say in relation to where he went and what he spent.
If we were going somewhere that required smart casual clothing, I would certainly have something to say if my partner wanted to wear a singlet, stubbies and a pair of thongs.
Dolphins:
The “infallible sign of an argument lacking in substance” is your attempt to discredit others by using it.
How many men do you think are going to go to the police and tell them that they have been beaten up by a woman???
Nov 11th, 2008
Dolphins
You are right, Bob. he complains (rightly) that others don’t cite sources of info, but then does worse himself. There is enough of that here as it is.
Nov 11th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
IAIN – “Did you know, that a large number of women experience violence for the first time during their pregnancy – these women are often in the abortion stats or those who have difficult pregnancies?
Gosh, where did you dig up this claim? Source please”
Unlike you, I am in constant contact with the latest studies and programs. I’ve listened to midwives, who tell these horrific tales. Women presenting at the Ante-natal clinic with workboot ‘marks’ on their bellies. You obviously choose to live in blissful ignorance, as does
LORIKEET- I did not say that there are no violent women; what I did say, was that the overwhelming number of victims are women(in hetrosexual relationships).If you and IAIN bothered to inform yourselves of the facts, you wouldn’t have to utter such banal comments.
Go to every State in the country. Type in ‘Womens Health’ or ‘Family Health’/abuse etc.Put Domestic Violence into Google. Put Sexual Harrassment also; Child Abuse!
Australian Domestic And Family Violence website – or
http://www.adfvc.unsw.edu.au/PDF%20files/Newsletter_34.pdf
IAIN You haven’t sourced any proof of your grand sweeping statements. I used information from a booklet put out by the NSW Health Dept.and other research. I’ve been reading about this for decades.
Victoria recently added the DV crime of ‘financial abuse’ – preventing women from financial independence via gainful employment – I can certainly attest to this aspect too.
“I haven’t mentioned those families living on the streets due to a lack of affordable housing?
How does that relate to domestic violence?” Women and kids forced out of their homes via violence, and forced to live in cars or on the street. There are over 100,000 people living on the streets in Australia! The majority don’t have a secure place to sleep – including kids!
It has been my experience, that when 6 or so women meet, and feel secure in a trusting environment, at least 1-2 will have been abused in some way. I’m now 63!
Nov 12th, 2008
Iain Hall
Naomi
Lets agree on one thing, and that is that Domestic violence is a bad thing where we differ is in your suggestion that this is entirely a problem in the nature of men. Now you can quote as many statistics as you please, Heck I will even agree that your examples are horrifying, but I think that problem is a human one and that unless both men and women learn to both chose their partners in a better way and to learn to negotiate better about the the issues they disagree on then we will never solve the problem. Feministas that insist that all men are innately evil and should feel guilt and shame for the actions of a few do their own cause a grave disservice by alienating those blokes out there who are not violent and abusive by tarring them with the same brush as those of us who are. Then there are the men who are victims of domestic violence themselves they get ignored or denied by your sort of feminism and they suffer just as much as any other victim.
Now if WRD was about ALL domestic violence I would have no qualms about supporting it but as it stands it is deeply flawed by the fact that it is a slave to feminist ideology and its innate Misandry.
Nov 12th, 2008
LORIKEET
I agree with Iain. Because there is an overwhelming number of women and children who are recorded as being victims of domestic violence doesn’t mean that men do not matter.
I don’t think too many men would come forward to complain, so that would skew the stats also.
No amount of personal abuse directed at either Iain or myself will deflect me from this view.
I think Iain’s explanation has a much broader scope than the opinions of radical feminists amongst us.
Nov 13th, 2008
LORIKEET
Some people may remember a woman on this blog (Donna) complaining that the police station had not 1, but 2 posters up on the wall condemning domestic violence against men.
Then to broaden the discussion a bit more, what about same-sex couples where there are 2 men in the house? Or 2 women in the house? What might be happening then?
A friend of mine who is a nurse said she had to attend to a homosexual man who came into the emergency department with a Coke bottle rammed up his Khyber. OOUUCCHH!!!
I’m also put in mind of the fact that the younger X and Y generations have been socialised in more of a unisex fashion in our schools and homes.
These days, it’s not uncommon to see young women with receding hair lines and thicker waste lines – instead of the more usual hour glass shapes. Women are also becoming more aggressive on the roads.
We are told this is due to unisex socialisation and greater personal ambition, with resultant higher testosterone levels.
By comparison, we are told that male testosterone levels are dropping. Perhaps there is some connection with the greater role a lot of men are now playing in childraising – also greater equality between men and women in the homes.
It would therefore make sense that younger men might be more likely to become victims of domestic violence than their older counterparts.
Nov 16th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET – I’ve not said at any stage, that men are not also abused. I’ve also not said at any stage, that people in same sex relationships are not victims of abuse. I could add to that, the numbers of (usually) mothers being attacked by their teenage children, as there are also elderly people who are also abused by their chn. The topic at hand is White Ribbon Day, which is an annual event to raise the consciousnesses of violence towards women. That’s the topic, and that’s what I’m addressing. I find it most frustrating, that people can’t look at the crime stats, that people can’t accept, that on a global basis and in this country, violence towards women and children is at horrific levels.
Today I heard White Ribbon Organisation give the results of its study into the effects of domestic violence on young people. Over 23% of young people have witnessed their mothers being assaulted – that this experience is detrimental to their growth, personalities and behaviours. It does not mean that every young person who witnesses abuse of their mother will follow their father’s(step father) behaviours. Sadly, all too frequently, they do – with terrible consequences. They also didn’t think that coercing? a young woman into sexual activity was OK, as was physical ‘encouragement’ to abide by the males dictates was also OK? I find this most disturbing. The emphasis should be on prevention, the head of this organisation said. I agree! It should start before the child is born.
If those who are trying to diminish the deleterious affects of violence in the home, would just observe for one week, the numbers of crimes of violence, and who the perpetrators are, the (overwhelming)majority would be male. That doesn’t mean, that because I draw attention to this, then I’m automatically a man hater. That is just childish nonsense. The facts, from ABS, State & National stats on violent crime; women’s refuges, women’s health centres etc all point to these facts as true.
Nov 17th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
The above post should read..”They also THOUGHT that coercing a young woman..etc was OK”
Just some of the history behind the proclamation by the UN re White Ribbon Day
25th NOVEMBER 1960.
Three sisters Patria, Maria Teresa and Minerva Mirabel (political activists in the Dominican Republic) were assassinated in a car accident. They were killed for their involvement in efforts to overthrow the fascist government of Rafael Trujillo.
July 1981
Women from across Latin America came together in Columbia. Appalled by the extent and diversity of violence against women, they agreed to hold an annual day of protest, and they decided to adopt 25th November as the date for this International Day Against Violence Against Women in memory of the Mirabel sisters.
1991
The first White Ribbon Campaign was launched by a group of men in Canada after the brutal mass shooting of 14 female students at the University of Montreal.
1996
In South Africa the National Network on Violence Against Women launched their own White Ribbon Campaign and many South African womens groups quickly adopted the White Ribbon symbol.
1998
WOMANKIND launched the first White Ribbon Day in the UK.
The White Ribbon Campaign has received national and international support from both men and women. Many of our international partners in India, Peru, Zimbabwe, Ghana and South Africa and women’s organisations globally organise events to raise the profile of the campaign and to break the silence about violence against women.
1999
The UN officially recognised 25th November as International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.
47 YEARS of seeking to educate the world about violence towards women! That’s why this particular date has been chosen. Even I didn’t realise that it has been 47 years!
Nov 17th, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
Then when are the men getting their day, whether separate or preferably inclusive?
I think Iain and I have made it very clear that we’re not disputing the abuse of women and children, or their right to a White Ribbon Day.
I think you should be fair to other posters, and dispense with the one-eyed view of males.
Nov 18th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET and IAIN – What you’re both doing, is splitting hairs, and when I put forward the statistics, reading material etc, you’re still using the anti-feminist rhetoric to detract from the overwhelming evidence – that women are bashed by men who profess to love them, in higher numbers than the opposite, or in same sex relationships. The stats on women who are murdered point to the legitimacy of my using these stats. Men are more likely to be murdered in hotels, on the street, during burglaries (mostly committed by males) and women (well over 65%) are murdered in a domestic violence situation – one every 4 days! Now, I don’t know why you’re still insisting on detracting from the statistics LORIKEET. You use arguments against your own rationale – legal, statistical information. Most frustrating! I’ve also only mentioned physical violence; there’s social, financial, emotional, psychological and demeaning abuse of women. Some women live in a ‘terrorist’ type environment, of being continually put down, kept in isolation, and verbally abused in front of their kids, other adults, family & friends (that’s if they’re not kept away from them).
In 2004, Nicola Roxon gave a speech, and her topic was, “Violence Against Women:One of Australia’s Greatest Human Rights Scandals”. She said that there’d been an increase of 30% in ten yrs of sexual assault against women, 10% in the preceeding 12 months. 18,000 women had gone to police to report this crime. It’s recognised, that only about 10% do so – that’s 180,000 women who are sexually assaulted in Australia each yr – about 50 per day???
For the last few yrs in NSW, while all other crimes had decreased, crimes of violence against women and children had increased. The stats are horrific.If women are not treated with dignity, respect and are BELIEVED the 1st time they report violence, it may take them yrs to do it again;sometimes 20 yrs. (cont)
Nov 19th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
A couple of yrs ago Radio National’s Background Briefing had an investigative program on DV. It gave an account of different programs that were being trialled re changing perpetrators behaviour; about making the perpetrator leave the family residence, as opposed to forcing women & kids out onto the street( that sadly happens all too frequently-due to lack of govt funds). It also revealed, that men who are ‘more educated’ use different ‘means’ of physical violence, such as, inflicting blows around the head and on the torso that can’t be seen. The overwhelming feeling of those brave women who told their stories, was their sense of shame, frustration at their vulnerability, and loss of hope. The worst part was their ’stories’ either not being believed, or being downgraded as of lesser significance – “perhaps he’s overwrought” “he’s lost his job” or “he loves his kids and is a good provider”?The most demoralising, is “What did you do to deserve that”?Shades of the past, when Judges told women that wearing a mini skirt was asking to be raped. While these comments are rarely heard these days, there’s still a widely held view of women’s ‘complicity’ as the report by the WRD Organisation revealed a day or so ago.
Each yr, on WRD, those on the front line assert, that the awareness does 2 things – gives women the courage to break their silence, but then there’s the frustration of not having adequate emergency housing available – the men may find out, and the violence escalates, resulting in ??There’s even a 2 wk to ??months wait, just to see a Counsellor.
It would make the whole horrific situation much better to confront and deal with, if all men accepted, that the stats are correct, and maybe if they keep going public (at work, the pub, the club etc) about the REAL TRUTH, and their abhorrence of it, the lives of women may improve.DV is about power, and the abuse of it!
Nov 19th, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
The only thing I am insisting upon is a broader perspective which also encompasses males – most of whom are highly unlikely to go to the police if they are assaulted.
I don’t place great stock on statistical information, nor do I appreciate extreme one-eyed views which discriminate against a segment of the population – in this case, males.
Some men are bashers, and some are bashees. We also have to face up to the fact that some women are very hard to live with.
It would make sense for ALL VICTIMS of domestic violence to go straight to the police every time it occurs. Unless they’re willing to do that, nothing will change.
My mother wasn’t treated very well by my father, so when he thought he was going to start in on his teenage daughters, I told him straight to his face where this was going to lead i.e. immediately to the police station. He didn’t like it, but he left us girls alone. That was nearly 40 years ago.
If a man behaved like an asshole, I would either take my children and leave, or preferably get HIM out of the house. If he hurt me once, a second attempt would end the relationship.
If people act like victims, they will be treated accordingly.
Nov 20th, 2008
Iain Hall
Naomi
I am by no means splitting hairs here what I am suggesting is that both you and your feminista pals are distorting the tragic reality of domestic violence.
If we do not truly understand the extent and the reality of the problem then just how can we expect to address it?
Nov 20th, 2008
ken
Naomi – I agree in the main with the known statsitics generally as portrayed by you, however I think the point here is that while most victims of DV are women inflicetd by men, not ALL men bash women.
I suspect your chances of having a decent discussion would improve considerabley if you could acknowledge that fact.
Nov 20th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET “Some men are bashers, and some are bashees. We also have to face up to the fact that some women are very hard to live with.” So the answer to some conflict situations justifies being violent? And if some men are sexually frustrated, then does that make sexual assault understandable? I’m amazed, that the enormity of this situation is downplayed by you!
KEN -Where have I stated that ALL men bash. If 1 in 4 middle aged men were being assaulted in the workplace, on the street, or in some other space, it would be declared as a crisis. The fact that on previous posts I gave the 1 in 4 stat, doesn’t that imply that I don’t think all men are bashers. The need for men to admit, that the OVERWHELMING number of DV assaults are committed by men against women; and the positive aspect of men being outraged, and telling their family, mates etc that they find it repugnant would send positive messages. For instance, every State,Territory Attorney General with the Federal AG have done so publicly.
DV is to do with POWER and control. Some people believe, that the only DV crimes are those that require hospitalization or near death.
LORIKEET – “If people act like victims, they will be treated according.”Do you think the same way about victims of crime, who, for example, have their car stolen, or are bashed in a pub or on the street?It’s very easy to judge others for reacting to a situation, that you haven’t had to face. At best, you’re compounding the abuse. Not everybody’s life is as cut and dried as yours, and you’re treating the battered person as a type of perpetrator – their crime? Being a victim?The facts are, that in many cases, the women are murdered AFTER they leave!
IAIN – In order for this to stop, first it has to be acknowledged. It’s strange how it’s OK to acknowledge the inhumane treatment of women in the Middle East, but people keep trying to water down the facts here.
Nov 20th, 2008
LORIKEET
Ken:
That’s right.
What I should have said was:
“Some men are bashers, and some are bashees, but most men are probably neither.”
This may be mainly because both partners have the ability to hold up their side of the relationship appropriately, and are responsible about what they spend, drink, wear etc.
They know how, when, where and why to compromise, instead of behaving like control freaks.
People who are involved in substance abuse need to be sent to rehab by the courts.
Nov 21st, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET ” both partners have the ability to hold up their side of the relationship appropriately, and are responsible about what they spend, drink, wear etc.” In a relationship, where the woman does not go outside the home for work, and therefore no financial independence, she is financially dependant on her husband/partner for not only her very food, but for the necessities of life for her chn. When this is already an imbalance in the relationship, the control ‘freak’ uses it to his advantage – and does so deliberately. In most relationships between male and female, there’s also the obvious imbalance in physical strength.In healthy relationships this is not even thought about, but in relationships where the male uses it as a threat (on past physical violence)this is a continuing area of concern and fear. If you’ve never lived in fear, you have no idea what it’s like. I find it most frustrating, while knowing the facts, and the horrendous misery continual violence or the threat of violence does to the self esteem, power and ability to function, peoples’ inability to recognise the seriousness of the issue by making untrue allegations, only makes the task of eliminating this scourge from women and their families lives, much harder. Exhausting in fact!
As to those who think my feminist views a ‘crime’, may I remind you to look in the dictionary and find out, that ‘feminism’ is the process of bringing about equality and justice for women. Those women who fought for the right to vote, to become doctors, demand the right to live without rape and violence achieved this by sitting quietly at home. Do you (Iain,Ken,Lorikeet) think that one day a man somewhere woke up and said, “my goodness, this isn’t right – I’ll change it” No, women had to lobby, write, protest, chain themselves to posts etc and thankfully, were supported by men who didn’t feel that women’s freedom was a threat to theirs? These men have no problem with speaking out, they don’t use the “but” system
Nov 21st, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
You should not be insulting Iain, Ken or me by treating us as if we don’t know what goes on in some homes. None of us came down in the last shower, as you might like to suppose.
Not all men are anti-female, as most of your stated views would seem to suggest. Some are feminists. I think this would include Andrew.
There is quite a difference between feminism and feminazism. I think your views and your insults represent the latter.
It would help if you could develop a more well rounded view of relationships. Not everything depends on a size differential between males and females.
Women are adults. They don’t have to put up with abuse due to financial dependency.
I’d like to know what you refer to as an “untrue allegation”.
Nov 22nd, 2008
Glen
Domestic violence against men manifests itself different to that against women. Hospital emergency admissions are often quoted to support the incidence of women who have suffered, however those guys that end up on the slab – 4-5 a day in Australia – seem to be ignored by the bean counters.
At most, women victims get to keep their life, whilst many male victims lose the last breath from their body. Australia is meant to be a smart country – we could have taken up the White Ribbon Day campaign to include all perpetrators and victims of DV, but instead we have women’s groups using it to bash and demonise men.
On WRD I will be remembering the thousands of men who have committed suicide due to the way they have been treated by our society and the negative effects of 40 years of Feminism.
I hope the many men who don their ribbons will start to think about the bigger picture.
Nov 23rd, 2008
Iain Hall
Naomi
Why do you think that We (Iain,Ken,Lorikeet) need repeated history lessons on the status of women in society?
I do not see your feminist views as a criminal matter but I do think that in many ways that your sort of feminism is very dated. What we need is to move beyond your sort of “female = good and male = bad” thinking toward a mindset that sees both men and women as being equal in their humanity, that acknowledges the qualities of BOTH genders and does not claim undue virtue in either.
Too many of your sort of feminists want to remake men as a sort of “second class women” rather than accept that being a man is not a bad thing.
Nov 23rd, 2008
LORIKEET
Glen:
Some of those male deaths could have occurred after women finally retaliated. Or are the 4-5 per day on the slab all suicides?
A lot of men don’t do very well once they have lost their partners through separation, divorce or other causations.
Nov 24th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
IAIN – “Too many of your sort of feminists want to remake men as a sort of “second class women” rather than accept that being a man is not a bad thing.” Your continual denial of the facts does more to reinforce this comment than anything I can do or say. If you want men to be respected etc then I suggest you educate yourself with the real facts, accept them, and then speak out at every opportunity that you are so sickened by mens’ violence to women and kids, that you will speak out at every opportunity. I also suggest, that instead of denigrating my ’sort of feminist’ you take a good look at your first post on this question. You set the environment for my response – you showed your anger and male bias towards my reality. I simply repeated the stats – the overwhelming evidence – many womens reality!
LORIKEET – Whilst I get very angry and frustrated by the ‘men’s club’ mentality, I must stress, that there’s a group of people who anger me more – and that’s women who sell out other women. I don’t know why you do it. You’d assert, that it’s because you use a ‘wider vision’ blah blah, but I suggest that your motivation, is to take the side of those with the power. You use flippant examples to argue against the facts, demeaning the reality of too many women’s lives; and compound the ongoing disgraceful behaviour of too many men!
When I speak out against the overwhelming reality, that the perpetrators of DV are men, I’m accused of being anti men. Men have to realise, that while they choose to remain silent; illogically defend the male sex for its tendancies toward committing acts of violence, the safety of women and kids will not happen.
News item today, that the 29 deaths of women & kids in NSW in the last financial yr, is the highest in 10 years. I’ve asked the question before – what have you read in the 19 days since Andrew posted this comment? Anything? At all? Andrew doesn’t have a problem with this. Why is that, do you think? He’s a man? Why?
Nov 24th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
IAIN -” Why do you think that We (Iain,Ken,Lorikeet) need repeated history lessons on the status of women in society?” Because you’re still too pig-headed or deliberately obtuse to accept the overwhelming fact, that women are bashed, raped, ruled, dominated, demeaned and humiliated by men(they love or have loved) who profess to love them. How many women do you know who’ve been assaulted in their lives; either as a child, an adolescent or an adult woman? Do you think the crime stats are a lie? Do you think, that on any given week/year, that crimes of violence are equally shared between men and women? If I abhor and speak out against cruelty to animals, including live sheep export or musling, does that automatically make me anti farming? Do I deserve to be denigrated as a radical ‘activist’ who wants to jeopardise our export industry? Or do I just want the cruelty to stop – even if it means a reduction in profits for a yr or two?
My ‘dated’ views will be irrelevant, when women are paid equally with men; when women are not treated as 2nd class citizens and men advocate a 50-50 quota in areas of decision making. After all, we are now the majority I believe? Only men can change that?
In a NSW booklet put out by NSW Health, 2003, it states(page 4)”Evidence from a range of sources, including police records, indicates, that 88 per cent to 92 percent of victims of domestic violence are women(Bagshaw & Chung 2000). It is also known that violence by men towards female partners, rather than the vice versa is more likely to result in multiple assaults, injury, hospitalization, death, and to continue post separation”
The stats re children exposed to DV, pregnant women (from 20% to a probable 10%) have only got worse since that NSW booklet was launched in 2003. Don’t fight me, take a stand against the perpetrators of sexual, physical, social, economic and psychological abuse of women and kids in Australia! Lots of men come out and support WRD, why don’t you – all?
Nov 24th, 2008
Iain Hall
If you want men to be respected etc then I suggest you educate yourself with the real facts,
Naomi
In a previous comment here I acknowledged your facts and statistics and I explicitly denounced all Domestic violence. However you seem hell bent on insisting that your interpretation of those facts is the only valid one. You are making the classic blind persons description of an elephant error, namely you are insisting that the part of the beast that you can touch and feel is the entire animal . What We (Iain,Ken,Lorikeet) are trying to make clear to you is that there is a larger picture here that you refuse to see.
Because you’re still too pig-headed or deliberately obtuse to accept the overwhelming fact, that women are bashed, raped, ruled, dominated, demeaned and humiliated by men
That is quite a chip you have on your shoulder there Namoi and I suspect that you can see nothing else because of it. Most of the men in our society do none of the things that you insist that all men do`
when women are not treated as 2nd class citizens and men advocate a 50-50 quota in areas of decision making. After all, we are now the majority I believe? Only men can change that?
In this country a woman can do any job she pleases (with the exception of front line service in the AMF) and what holds women back from greater participation in the decision making positions in our society is the simple fact is that fewer women than men want to take on such responsibilities.
Lots of men come out and support WRD, why don’t you – all?
Because it is a very flawed instrument Naomi, for all of the reasons that I have previously stated.
Nov 25th, 2008
Helen
Because there is an overwhelming number of women and children who are recorded as being victims of domestic violence doesn’t mean that men do not matter.
Lorikeet, please go straight to Wikipedia and read up on what “straw man” means.
I don’t think too many men would come forward to complain, so that would skew the stats also.
You and the likes of Iain always say this. Firstl, Iain wouldn’t accept it from the other side (“cites please!”) so, what’s good for the goose, etc. Cites, please!
Second, why on earth wouldn’t they come forward to complain, or seek treatment? People who assume this seem to live inside a world view where women are absolutely lesser, therefore to be beaten or hurt by one is utterly shaming and laughable. To me, it speaks volumes about the person bringing forward this argument (Cites, please!)
These days, it’s not uncommon to see young women with receding hair lines and thicker waste lines – instead of the more usual hour glass shapes. Women are also becoming more aggressive on the roads.
Cites, pleeeeease! That sounds like the sort of third-hand evpsych you’d read in New Idea.
We are told this is due to unisex socialisation and greater personal ambition, with resultant higher testosterone levels… (etc)
Beware of “science” filtered through the Hun and Cosmo.
I think you should be fair to other posters, and dispense with the one-eyed view of males.
Again, this is just simply a strawman argument. We’re talking about violent and criminal behaviour, not the behaviour of most people.
Nov 25th, 2008
Helen
And the bit which made my jaw drop,
My mother wasn’t treated very well by my father, so when he thought he was going to start in on his teenage daughters, I told him straight to his face where this was going to lead i.e. immediately to the police station. He didn’t like it, but he left us girls alone. That was nearly 40 years ago.
This paragraph and the one following it are a real eye opener. Your own mother has been subject to behaviour from your father which was worthy of reporting to the police, and you are still claiming that White Ribbon Day is ridiculous and unfair and wrong. Wow.
You’ve experienced what WRD is all about and still you blame the victims. That is psychological harm, right there.
Nov 25th, 2008
LORIKEET
Helen:
Strawmen are for Guy Fawkes’ night.
It seems that you, too, have a one-eyed view of domestic violence situations.
I didn’t claim that “White Ribbon Day is ridiculous and wrong”, but I did say it is unfair.
Thank you for asking these questions. It gives me an opportunity to attempt to explain where some cases of domestic violence stem from.
When my mother and father got married, Mum allowed Dad to treat her like a slave – even encouraged it. Every time he called, she came running, despite the fact she was very busy herself in the kitchen, as well as holding down a full-time job.
This reduced his respect for her as a person. As a result, he bullied her more and more, pushing for a boundary line he never succeeded in finding. (He found mine when I was only 14.)
Every time my mother reacted with appeasement, his respect decreased further.
Things were not too bad when I was a child, but by the time I was 28 and had been married for 10 years, he was raping her. He hated her. She hated him. He raped her because she wouldn’t have sex.
All of us girls and my brother tried to get our mother out of there, even offered her accommodation, but she wouldn’t leave.
For 10 years, all of my family argued with me as to whether our mother’s behaviour contributed to (or possibly even started) the abuse. Eventually they came to understand that there was fault on both sides.
Mum’s best friend said this on many occasions: “Your mother made her own bed, and now she has to lie in it.”
If you and Naomi want to help victims of domestic violence (men, women and children), it’s necessary to address co-dependency and teach people to uphold a boundary line. Without one, they will get walked over.
Men don’t come forward where DV is concerned, because the society expects them to be strong and brave. To admit women have hurt them would be a serious “come down” in the eyes of other males.
Nov 25th, 2008
Dolphins
White Ribbon Day is about demonstrating that there are many males who oppose domestic violence. It is about giving a counter-model to those young boys who have apparently, according to surveys, internalised the idea that it is OK to force sex on young women who say no. I am in favour of this idea, and hope it becomes widespread. The details of my own case are not as bad as some I know of – I am still alive. I witnessed domestic violence as a child and was subjected to it. I carry teh scars today.
Anyone who stands up for the victims of violence has my support in that cause. Anyone who apportions blame to people who are injured by others is missing the point in my view. Violence does not solve problems – it only makes them worse, and the sooner young folk are taught that we don’t accept violence in our society the better.
Nov 25th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
IAIN – Your opening remarks said a lot about how you really feel – after that you’ve tried to back track; now you’re doing a complete circle and blaming ‘my type of feminism’ as the guilty party. Amazing! I’ve said that not all men bash women etc, but if an objective person follows the crime stats on a daily basis, they’d have to agree, that there’s a very serious problem in TOO MANY men and boys dispositions, that leads to an overwhelming number committing crimes of violence – rangeing from bullying, upwards! You now claim ‘I was right all along’ while every concession has also carried at least one “but”? Those wonderful men who volunteered to be White Ribbon Day Ambassadors did not have a problem with speaking out about their own sex. I’ve not heard one of them use the “but” system.
“and what holds women back from greater participation in the decision making positions in our society is the simple fact is that fewer women than men want to take on such responsibilities.” Oh really? And where did you dig that little gem up from? There’s been articles in recent times how female public servants are prevented from being promoted due to maternity leave; that many women, due to a lack of paid maternity leave, are forced to put off their quest for higher positions or careers – not that they DON’T WANT TO! There’s a big difference. Also, in many cases, the words of ‘equality’ and ‘opportunity’ are only nice words – where in reality, many women are not content with their present status – many are also underemployed
LORIKEET – The stats in relation to the 74 women who were killed in Australia doesn’t portray the real truth – those women (and kids) who were murdered by a past or present partner who then killed himself, are not included in the crimes of murder, as there isn’t a person to charge. It also doesn’t give the truth about the dozens of kids who are murdered.The Sydney Morning Herald had a great coverage yesterday, and you could access those stories on their site.
Nov 26th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
GLEN- People might be interested in this article, written by a MAN, that was on the WRD website – Blogs section – number 3!
http://www.whiteribbonday.org.au
Ilya Shambat | December 11, 2007 at 1:34 am
“In September of this year, I began writing on the Internet about the injustices committed in Australian family courts. The response from men on the boards was revealing. One responder said that Australian men have “figured out long ago that women are bitches, and breed them out of that attitude.” Two justified wife-killing, one saying that a man who kills his wife “does not murder her, he corrects her existence” and another saying that some wives deserve to be killed. One respondent kept claiming that I was a Lesbian from Women’s Electoral Lobby while claiming my identity as someone I don’t know and undoubtedly violating that person’s privacy rights in the process. A representative of Fathers4Equality began posting injunctions for people to “have strength in numbers” and vote in the upcoming election for their candidates.”
The article goes on to observe the descrepancy in the Family Court system. Mothers losing custody of their chn after they exposed her husband’s/partners violence – even when the violence was also against the child.
I urge you to read this. He has a view re many men’s suicides – MANY not ALL Iain, Lorikeet?He also exposes the practice of Parental Alienation Syndrome started by a Richard Gardner in the 1980’s – he apparently also condoned paedophilia- a US citizen,” his views were quickly discredited”.
IAIN – If the current situation re the overwhelming stats re DV victims was likened to another country’s violent invasion without just cause (in most cases) there’d be a world war declared, and this form of ‘terrorism’ would be ’stamped out’? Watch The 7.30Report coverage of last evening, and if you don’t ask the question “Why” then, I’ll give up! This woman’s story was covered in detail on Australian Story – it can probably be seen online.
Nov 26th, 2008
John Greenfield
This whole issue has once more merely broadcast how passe and irrelevant these pathologically angry second-wave feminazis are as they hit thier 60s.
Nov 26th, 2008
Glen
Naomi – Yes all suicides every day.
Here is something more credible.
“Media coverage of a new report released last week by the White Ribbon Foundation focusing solely upon violence by men against women and girls, has been criticized by a leading men’s health organisation for only telling half of the story. “One would think after following last week’s news, that the only violence happening in Australian society is male-on-female. Nothing could be further from the truth,” said Greg Andresen, Media Consultant with Men’s Heath Australia.
In last week’s press, White Ribbon Chairman Andrew O’Keefe claimed that many boys hold violence supportive attitudes, reporting that “close to one in three (31%) boys believe ‘it’s not a big deal to hit a girl’”. Men’s Health Australia points out that the 2001 National Crime Prevention study cited actually reported the exact opposite: close to one-in-three (31%) boys believe ‘When a girl hits a guy it’s really not a big deal’. Mr O’Keefe also stated that “nearly one in three (32%) boys believe ‘most physical violence occurs because a partner provoked it,’” omitting the fact that a large percentage of girls (25%) also believe this.
The co-author of the report, Michael Flood claimed last Monday that “nationally up to half of all young people have seen or heard verbal, emotional or psychological violence used against their mothers.” Mr Andresen says, “while this may be true, Dr Flood neglects to mention that the level of violence against fathers witnessed by young people occurs at similar levels to violence against mothers. He also fails to mention the level of mutual couple violence which is much more common than exclusive violence by either sex. Young people witnessing these forms of violence by their parents or step-parents are just as at-risk as those witnessing violence against their mothers.”
Etc… etc…
Like I said before WRD – Great idea but really needs to be inclusive of all victims of domestic violence to be effective.
Nov 26th, 2008
Iain Hall
Naomi
I was preparing a long response to your post but Glen has Guzumpted me with the sort of salient facts that I was looking for. He points out exactly why you are meeting the requirements of the blind woman describing an elephant fallacy :o)
Nov 27th, 2008
Tony
Glen
Glen Says: Like I said before WRD – Great idea but really needs to be inclusive of all victims of domestic violence to be effective.
Good post Glen and Iain. Events like the WRD can become a problem when select groups IE feminists use it to push their bandwagon.
The problem is too important to have their ideology blocking or distorting the truth.
Tony
Nov 27th, 2008
Andrew Bartlett
Gee – why wouldn’t feminsts be concerned about violence towards women!
This comments thread started out with allegations that White Ribbon Day was a man-hating exercise, even though it is specifically about men taking a public stand against violence towards women.
Since then we’ve had various accusations about ‘feminazis’ and the like, and even a description of the circumstances of a woman who was regularly raped in her marriage as “there being fault on both sides”.
If people can’t even campaign on something as straight-forward and clear cut as opposing violence against women without these sorts of ideological sprays, it’s no wonder it is still so terribly prevalent.
Nov 27th, 2008
ken
Andrew, being concerned and campaiging are somewhat different from being hectored, harangued and lectured at as if one is an ignorant schoolchild.
It’s onyl natural that some may find that a bit much, it is however as you note clear cut and I support the concept of wrd, and have never said I don’t despite being lumped in with some others here.
My grandfather abused my grandmother and my father made it patently clear to me growing up that was not on, and I too the same to my teenage son.
I think the problem wioth some, apart from the deliberaterly argumentative and obtuse, is that these things always seem to appear to be hijakced by the extremists and ranting rent a crowd types, whcih actually In my view at least detracts from the proper message.
Nov 27th, 2008
Andrew Bartlett
I agree with all that Ken. I guess as was pointed out in the second comment, this thread was pretty much fated from the start to degenerate into a flame war. Still, it displays some of the views that are out there so it has some purpose in that regard
Nov 27th, 2008
Glen
Andrew etc…
I believe WRD in Australia has come about due to woman pressuring men to take a stand against violence against women. I think this is why people like myself have concerns.
If a group of men in Australia freely decided to take up the campaign, then I believe it would have run very different course to the current campaign. For example men bashing or demonising advertisements would probably not have taken place.
I think it is irresponsible to run a one sided campaign that only women suffer from the hands of men whilst 5 men commit suicide every day in Australia due to family/relationship problems including domestic violence inflicted by their wives. The statistics of women who have died as a result of DV pales to the thousand or so men that commit suicide every year.
Something else that was left out of the campaign stats was that the incidence of partner abuse between lesbians is abnormally very high.
OI think the Feminists don’t like to air their dirty linen.
Like I said before WRD is a great start and I support it as much as I can, but I believe we need to take a “Big Picture” view of DV to find the answers we need.
Nov 27th, 2008
LORIKEET
Perhaps we could all agree on at least this point.
All adults need education and support so they can live together in harmony. We need to look at causes and find solutions.
I once heard of a man who had sex with his wife 16 times a day and was also violent towards her. I think doctors should have investigated his testosterone levels to see if they were in need of some kind of moderation.
I’m certain Queensland schools teach non-violence between children, regardless of gender, but I know the behaviour management system does not sufficiently uphold what is taught, which is also reflected in both adult’s and children’s courts.
Naomi is right about the way in which the Family Court treats women. I’ve experienced it myself.
These days, the rights of the child seem to come before what is in his/her best interests.
I would also agree with Naomi that women’s workplace promotional opportunities are heavily limited by their childraising responsibilities.
As for the idea that “all women are bitches”, this is possibly true at times, just as it is true that “all men are bastards” at times. Some people’s behaviour is much worse than others.
My father used to purvey the idea that “all women are stupid”, even though his 2 eldest daughters were at the top of the class. There are no prizes for guessing who we thought must be stupid.
Here’s another dumb idea, which came from a woman this time: “90% of women are smarter than men”. In my experience, there are very clever people of both genders.
On a television report on White Ribbon Day, they said it is far safer for a woman to get out of a relationship in which she is being physically abused, than it is for her to stay.
As a very young woman, I tried to use the experience of my parents’ relationship in positive ways. I thought it was an excellent yardstick by which to measure my own behaviour and that of males I dated.
Andrew:
There’s quite a difference between a feminist and a feminazi.
Nov 28th, 2008
LORIKEET
BTW I didn’t blame my own mother for the fact she was raped.
But I think it is very true to say that the interaction between 2 people can have a profound influence on how each partner is treated.
Since no one is perfect, there can be fault on both sides which influence relationships in negative ways.
The kids in my family didn’t like our father. Consequently, he was avoided and ignored quite a lot. This only seemed to increase his interest in getting attention in negative ways.
We supported our mother – not our father. Even now, my mother admits she handled my father badly at the beginning of the relationship. Abuses mostly occurred because the relationship didn’t end when it should have and/or there was no relationship counselling available.
Back then, the police didn’t come to “domestics”. A man’s home was his castle, and his wife and children were chattels, which also didn’t help at all.
If a woman is being abused, I think she should separate from the man immediately, and not take him back too easily. An agreement should be drafted up and signed by both parties as to how the relationship will be conducted in future. This might also include couple and individual counselling.
I once knew a couple who threw pots of boiling water and hot food all over one another, and broke chairs over one another’s heads. After significant counselling, they are now living together in harmony.
I think Ken’s dad had the right idea. My father-in-law taught all of his sons the same. It’s a pity some parents don’t teach both boys and girls more positive ways of interacting.
I think the men contributing here have acknowledged support for WRD. They just want some recognition for their own gender, which is their democratic right.
Nov 28th, 2008
Tony
Lorikeet:
Lorikeet says: think Ken’s dad had the right idea. My father-in-law taught all of his sons the same. It’s a pity some parents don’t teach both boys and girls more positive ways of interacting.
Thats true, but but these days the external and state intereference makes it hard for parents who are doing the right thing to stay on top of it.
There is virtually no displine, and an emphasis on rights and no teaching of responsibities. So the child may be being taught well at home but is being swamped with negative influences at school.
I believe thats why so many parents are opting for private schooling which in itself is financially & time consuming.
Tony
Nov 28th, 2008
Glen
Well Lorikeet if you want to ignore statistics and research that’s your choice, but I’m glad we can agree on something.
I also believe that we all should live together happy.
I know of many women who have a stronger sex drive than their male partners.
With my experience working in schools anything physical gets instant attention however verbal or emotional abuses can be easily ignored. If really depends on the school and how effective their policies on bullying are and also the demographics they draw from.
What Naomi said is somewhat true but the context of the situation need to be looked at, for example if a mother does not want the father to have a meaningful relationship with their children and goes to great lengths to enforce this belief, and the father happily supports the mothers relationship with the children, then a family court will probably give the father more parental responsibility than the mother.
I like your idea about what a women should do if she is being abused – I would recommend the same for a man being abused but the only problem is what to do with the kids – So what happens now is that the women calls the police and they come and remove her husband from the family home making him homeless. Not a very good start to resolving their problems.
I teach my daughters as well as my sons that physical violence is not acceptable at all. I also work on the verbal and emotional violence as well.
Your last paragraph is most agreeable.
Nov 28th, 2008
philip travers
I am a Saint!? Without wanting to be religious! A possum and child are romping around the kitchen now! Luv them!? Had a bull that is interested in getting in the house so he can prove a cliche”, accept I wasn’t made in China! And as life goes by,going out backwards,I suggest to all those in anyway in a relationship, to try it for an hour, a day, or at ones’ busiest time…going out backwards.And ,if you find the love of ones’ life, try to arrange it so you meet going out backwards.That then reduces ones’ front to practicalities of pleasant interchange.Please! Dont comment! I will miss you! Yeah!
Nov 28th, 2008
John Greenfield
Andrew, you are making the common mistake of conflating second-wave feminazis with women. While the former claims to speak on behalf of the latter, the latter overwhelmingly disavows association with the former.
Nov 28th, 2008
LORIKEET
Tony:
Queensland public schools teach both rights and responsibility, but in actual practice, children seem to have most of the rights while the adults have most of the responsibility.
We have “experts” from the USA criticising teaching ability, when the first thing they need to look at is appropriate discipline. A teacher friend told me she would rather go back to teaching in a predominantly aboriginal school than teach white children from higher socio-economic areas, because they won’t do anything they’re told.
I don’t think private schools are very different. We all belong to the same society where the same stupidity is taught.
In my experience, privileged children are more likely to verbally abuse adults and peers, an
On the issue of DV, I think we can expect an increase in children abusing their parents at home.
I think the major contributors to DV amongst adults are:
genetic inheritance
upbringing/role modelling
mental health issues
hormonal disturbances
peer influences
effects of medication (e.g. cortisone treatment)
inability to negotiate and compromise
differing goals and values
lack of respect
addictions (alcohol, drugs, gambling)
financial stress (poverty, gambling)
workplace abuses
I have added workplace abuses due to the fact that employers seem to be cutting staffing levels, increasing workloads, reducing pay, and implementing ridiculous working hours which conflict with family life.
Glen:
You said: “then the Family Court will give the father more parental responsibility than the mother”.
Do you mean “financial responsibility”?
Surely it would make sense for a separation to occur if violence is occurring between adults, with one adult remaining in the family home with the children. If the mother is violent towards the father, perhaps he will need to stay with the kids, unless she is not a risk to them. I guess it also depends on who is working outside the home – both parents, one parent or neither.
Nov 29th, 2008
LORIKEET
Sorry, Tony.
I had a bit of a problem with the 2000 character limiter again.
What I meant to say was:
In my recent experience, I have found that highly privileged children are more likely to verbally abuse adults, while physical fistacuffs occur more frequently among the disadvantaged/poor.
If you ask bus drivers, they will probably tell you that private school students give them more trouble than those from public schools.
Nov 29th, 2008
henry
Sorry, I haven’t read the entire thread but just needed to get this off my chest.
The one aspect where White Ribbon Day fails is in the advocation that men need to change their sexist attitudes towards women, however, what men really need to do is change attitudes about MASCULINITY and how chivalry, restrictive social constructs and gender essentialism (the products of patriarchy) are damaging to society. It’s highly ironic that some WRD ambassadors are sport stars that come from the bastions of hyper hegemonic masculinity.
It’s men (and women) who continue to perpetuate such toxic notions that gender imbalance exists and thus, why domestic violence is widespread.
Nov 29th, 2008
Andrew Bartlett
Glen – I have been involved in White Ribbon Day many times in the past. I never did so due pressure from women or men. Given that WRD is about men publicly taking a stand, you would have to have a pretty dim view of all those men who are ambassadors to suggest that most of them are only doing so due to pressure from women.
In any case, I still fail to see why anyone would need to be pressured to “take a stand against violence against women”.
John G – you’re making the common mistake of just being inflammatory for the hell of it.
And for anyone else who still thinks the whole ting is a man-hating conspiracy, I would note that the Senate passed the following resolution (which means it was supported by the Conservatives)
I hope no one will suggest this motion was only passed by a male majority Senate due to pressure from women.
Nov 29th, 2008
LORIKEET
Henry:
I think gender imbalance still exists. Can the truth be toxic?
The whole issue of domestic violence is complex.
Here’s an interesting statement from a university educated 28 year old woman. She is tall and of medium build.
“Women will never have equality, because men are physically stronger than we are.”
I guess she means women can be beaten into submission.
I think any decent man (or woman) would support an end to domestic violence. Would he want ANY of his own relatives or friends to be beaten to death, regardless of gender?
Nov 30th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET – The story you tell about your parents is one that’s repeated too often. Sadly, your interpretation is also, sadly, repeated too often. The fact is, that all acts of DV are to do with power. I suggest, that your mother did not ‘allow’ your father to dominate her. He was a controller, and for obvious reasons, he used her vulnerability against her. To put it bluntly – abusers ‘groom’ their victims, like paedophiles groom theirs. Most don’t start out with physical acts of violence. It’s usually, a little at a time; gradually escalating – they’re pathologically ’smart’ I feel! Your mother lived in an environment, where women were oppressed. Men had a field day. What happened behind closed doors was his business. Your mother’s so-called friend was either a well groomed woman herself, or a very bad friend – or both? If you bothered to read some history of women of your mothers’ generation, or had any semblance of care for her, you’d have told her story with more anger against your father. My father, with his domineering behaviour did not rape my mother (not as far as I know) If I’d found out that he did, he’d have got the business from me, I can tell you. I certainly would not have portrayed my mother like you have yours. With her story, you still nitpick about the relevance of WRD? Your mother was not only sold out by her husband – she’s been sold out again – by you! Very sad!
“When my mother and father got married, Mum allowed Dad to treat her like a slave – even encouraged it.” “ALLOWED”?And you know this because? How old were you when they got married? How do you know how and why she behaved as she did? Did she tell you? Did her so-called friend tell you? Did your father tell you? How do you know? Where were you WHEN they got married? How old were you? (cont)
Nov 30th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
“Things were not too bad when I was a child, but by the time I was 28 and had been married for 10 years, he was raping her. He hated her. She hated him. He raped her because she wouldn’t have sex.”
I’m not surprised she “wouldn’t have sex”? Are you serious? Is it her fault he committed a horrific crime/s? This gets sadder and sadder!
“All of us girls and my brother tried to get our mother out of there, even offered her accommodation, but she wouldn’t leave.” Oh, really, and why was that? Did you ask her? Did you report him to the police? No! Why not? Did he ‘do a job’ on his kids as well? If she was my little Mum, I’d have picked her up and left. Unbelievable? And you gauge violence against women today with those attitudes and gutless actions you and your siblings embraced, to your mother’s detriment. Is all this really true, or are you winding us up? Unbelievable! I’m feeling sick for your mother!
If it had been a stranger who’d raped your mother, over and over, and you found out, would you have called the police then? Rape is a violent crime no matter who the perpetrator is. Your mother deserved better! Your siblings and you committed parent abuse; you also did not report a serious crime – if it was a bank robbery, you’d also be charged with a list of serious crimes. Do banks deserve to be robbed, because they keep money on the premises? Did your mother deserve to be raped because she was frightened of your father, or felt impotent due to years of being dominated/terrorised?
And these experiences coloured your vision of the overwhelming facts – that an overwhelming number of women are abused, while a minor number of men are abused. When women are treated equally in the world, then those who criticize WRD as being “unfair” or “doesn’t tell the whole story” can object to the female ’slant’ on this issue.
Did you ask your mother if you could release the details of her experiences? If not, she was abused again!
Nov 30th, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
I find your attitude very insulting. Perhaps if you read all of what I have said and also had a good look at my list of possible causes of DV, you would not be treating me as if I am a bad/ignorant person.
I have not blamed my mother for the fact she was raped. This is simply an interpretation placed on the situation by those who won’t extend their vision beyond a narrow view.
My mother has not been “abused again” by me. That’s part of the reason I use a nom de plume.
My mother lives in a nursing home now. The person who looks after her interests, buys clothes etc is me, as I’m sure you are well aware from other posts.
I haven’t nitpicked the relevance of WRD at all. I have simply asked for it to be extended to all victims of DV. If men weren’t victims, the police wouldn’t have posters up, would they?
You cannot simply pick up your mother and make her do what you think is best. A control freak does that. Also the likelihood of a very co-dependent person returning to her abuser is high.
BTW my mother’s friend was a very caring person. She stuck by my mother through thick and thin. She was generous to a fault, but she could certainly see more in relation to my parents’ situation than you. My father didn’t like this woman, because she told him a few things he didn’t want to hear.
I think I had a much better handle on the whole situation and its causation at the age of 11 than you do in your 60s.
Yet again, you are treating intelligent people as if they came down in the last shower instead of thinking broadly and laterally.
I suggest you put your own past abuses aside, so you can see the whole complex scenario of DV more clearly.
Dec 1st, 2008
henry
LORIKEET – You’ve misinterpreted what I said. The “toxic” notions I was referring to are those that perpetuate gender stereotypes (i.e. “real” men/women are A, B and C) and restrictive social constructs, which, as a consequence creates this gender imbalance.
It would be remiss of anyone to say that inequality doesn’t exist. Domestic violence is proof of that.
Dec 1st, 2008
Helen
“All of us girls and my brother tried to get our mother out of there, even offered her accommodation, but she wouldn’t leave.” It’s not unusual for women to be reluctant to leave if the abuser threatens to harm or kill her (and/or harm or kill pets, younger children, etc). As we know from the crime statistics, these threats are quite often carried out at the point where the woman is leaving or has recently left. It’s a very dangerous time to be the abused partner.
Dec 1st, 2008
John Kimble
Here are some fo the many many reason White Ribbon day is nothing other than sick, unhelpful gender racism:
1. It ignores male victims and belittle’s their plight (that on’s’ obvious).
2. It’s about ending “Men’s violence against women” – thus as well as point one, you’re also playing down the existence of all the female abusers out there.
3. The phrase “Men’s violence against women” of course rules out same sex domestic violence – and of course domestic violence is a bigger problem between same sex couples than in any other type of relationship!!
4. The phrase “Men’s violence against women” completely ignores children too – most of which are more likely to be abused by feamels than males.
5. “Men’s violence against women” implies that somehow this is the worst and of course the most common type of violence one could possibly get and that men are abusers not victims. It is a distortion of reality abnd a lie. The biggest victims of violence in most countries are men. Men are far, far more liekly to be victims of violence than women and far, far more likely to meet a violent death.
Dec 1st, 2008
LORIKEET
Henry and Helen:
I agree with both of your last posts.
John:
When you say that men are “the biggest victims of violence in most countries”, are you talking about war?
If so, can you please tell us what relevance you think it has to domestic violence, other than perhaps post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) affecting relationships.
Dec 1st, 2008
Dolphins
If some males want to have a day against violence against males then it is open to them to organise one … why detract from the message of White Ribbon Day? Compassion is infinite – it doesn’t lessen our feeings for abused men to acknowledge the horror of women (and children) who are beaten in thier own home, supposedly their refuge from a harsh world. Maturity ackowledges that there are other points of view than one’s own.
Dec 1st, 2008
Glen
Andrew – I rest my case – This is from the WRD website:
“In 1999, the United Nations General Assembly declared November 25 the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women (IDEVAW) and the White Ribbon has become the symbol for the day.
From 2000, the Commonwealth Government Office for Women ran awareness activities on the International Day, and, in 2003, the Australian branch of the United Nations Development Fund for Women, UNIFEM, began a partnership with men and men’s organisations to make this a national campaign. Ten thousand white ribbons were distributed in 2003.”
You are correct – no one should be pressurised to take a stand to support WRD, but look at it this way Andrew – If any male with prominence refused to become an ambassador for WRD – who would take a dim view of them and what would the consequences be?
Remember what Bush said – “If you are not with us then you are against us”. I don’t think any man would dare say no to being part of WRD if they were asked.
I would not hold a dim view of these men thinking that they were manipulated by women’s groups. After all it was the Office for Woman that asked them to take a stand. Saying no is not really an option. I guess they then become victims if they say yes with ambivalence.
Do I need to say anymore?
Dec 1st, 2008
Glen
Lorikeet
I meant parental responsibility – which could mean – more power to make decisions for the kids which usually also means a majority of care time with the kids than the mother or 50/50.
The stories of fathers alleging PAS to get majority custody are not true – they come from USA and their Family Law is different to ours. A Judge has a hell of a lot to consider before giving the children to the other parent. PAS is only one variable.
Dec 1st, 2008
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Everything you need to know about Iain Hall.
Dec 2nd, 2008
John Surname
“I have had this argument before and i know what i am talking about and I think that you do not have a clue.”
Iain fails to mention he was comprehensively walloped in that argument. Iain’s argument at the time was “Women who goad, nag and belittle must accept some responsibility for their actions”. A clearer suggestion that it is okay to beat wives I am yet to see.
What many of you don’t realise is that a large part of Iain’s writing pertains to men victimised by women, for instance, false claims of rape, and he sees White Ribbon Day as yet another opportunity for women to walk all over men. But when your wife is earning all the money you have to show your manhood somehow.
Dec 2nd, 2008
LORIKEET
John Surname:
“Women who goad, nag and belittle must accept some responsibility for their actions.”
Where does it actually SAY that it’s okay to beat wives?
Glen:
A man who has a new wife has quite a good chance of taking the children from their mother, especially if the kids are older and the mother is parenting alone. He just has to go through a couple of steps in order to do it.
If you want more time with your children, you can easily contact the Family Relationships Centre and try to resolve your contact issues in mediation.
I don’t personally support 50/50 parenting on either side. I think it turns kids into insecure habitual nomads, with no one actually committed to the children. They need a stable home base with frequent supportive contact with the other parent.
“If you are not with us, then you are against us” is a black-and-white statement being used by a warmonger e.g. George Bush.
I think it’s wrong to assume that men who support WRD, such as Andrew Bartlett, have been manipulated by women. Men go because they don’t want to see their sisters, mothers, neighbours or any children being bashed.
I think a politician can easily knock back a few invitations to support various causes, without most people thinking the worst of him. I don’t think it would matter which ones they were.
Dolphins:
If men are not included in White Ribbon Day, wouldn’t it be labelled “separatist” or “sexist” to give them a different day from women and children? Isn’t it a scenario comparable with separating blacks from whites (racism)?
Dec 2nd, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET – These are the relevant questions I raised, which you didn’t answer. I don’t give a hoot, whether you spend 24 hours out of every day washing your mother’s back, she was a victim of horrific crimes, and you were the one who diminished the enormity of those incidences. I repeat, if, as adults you and your siblings knew what your father had done to your mother, why didn’t you do something, instead of now infusing those crimes with your mother’s ‘contribution’ to them?
I repeat the questions I raised, and urge you to go back and look at what YOU wrote!
“If it had been a stranger who’d raped your mother, over and over, and you found out, would you have called the police then?”
“Did your mother deserve to be raped because she was frightened of your father, or felt impotent due to years of being dominated/terrorised?”
Is the refusal to participate in a sexual relationship a just reason for a husband to rape his wife? I say NO, NEVER!
JOHN KIMBLE – You have a real problem with understanding what DV is all about, so I’ll make it very clear to you. What makes DV so revolting, repugnant and a horrific burden for women, is because the perpetrator is a man who they love – for a long time – probably too long! The men are very clever, and ‘play’ the woman like a well known ‘musical instrument’. They have/do usually profess to love them; they are the fathers of their children; they have a split personality; one for home, one for work, one for friends, one for family members (usually theirs). They use behaviours that resemble terrorism – they use psychological abuse, threaten to harm their kids if ’she’ (their mother) doesn’t cave in to their wishes(agreeing to always have the meal ready when he expects? it-regardless?whether her father is dying or???) and they cleverly are able to ‘king hit’ her in one minute, and then(if a visitor arrives) ‘lovingly’ ask if their wife/partner would like a coffee! (cont)
Dec 2nd, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
JOHN KIMBLE – I abhor all violence. I readily admit, that sadly, men are the victims of too much violence – usually by strangers? And that’s the relevant difference. As I previously stated, what makes violence against women in a ‘domestic’ relationship so horrific, is that the perpetrator too frequently lives a multi personality life. One of the difficulties for women, is that all too frequently, their husbands/partners are perceived as ’solid’ ‘good providers’ ‘good workers, frequently aspiring to and achieving promotion/s (often with the encouragement/sacrifice/s of their wives/partners) but they oppose every semblance of her aspiring to self fulfillment, education, outside work achievements, and many other occurrences that inflict the most repressive and usually physically harmful repercussions, including many preventable medical conditions!
They are capable of exhibiting the most controlled ‘emotionless’ behaviours, but come across as people who uphold progressive social positions – as long as THEIR wife/partner doesn’t expect the same. I believe, that people who behave like this have severe psychological behavioural problems/illnesses, or maybe, they’re just plain bloody ’self lovers’ – to the detriment of even their own children. Their only goal is their own self interests! They’re ‘in love’ with themselves, and that attitude colours their thinking – always.
If men want support groups for men – do what women have had to do? Get off your arses, organize yourselves, write the submissions, have the meetings, terrorise your parliamentarians with your persistancy – just like women have done, since the 60’s at least!
Protest against war, rape in war, renditions, abuses of ALL human rights, and stop resenting women like me, who’ve got off my arse, done the hard work (with my mates) supported many women & kids, and respected peoples’ privacy regarding their horrific herstories! I’ve never revealed another woman’s horror ’story’ without her permission – ever!
Dec 2nd, 2008
Glen
Lorikeet – If I was a male politician and was approached by the Federal Government’s Office for Women to support WRD I would not hesitate in agreeing to do so. No one wants to labeled as someone who condones domestic violence against women.
WRD was originally about men coming together from their personal convictions to protest against violence against women – not women manipulating men to do so.
Regarding parenting kids of divorced parents, usually when the kids are older, say over 12, their wishes basically determine where they live so it’s not really the parent’s circumstances that get them greater care. I guess it ultimately depends on the relationship that the parents have developed with their kids in the early years.
I do see where you are coming from – I guess a man who has got his life together and re-partnered and endured the pitfalls of a blended family, has got to be a pretty good parent to start with, and yes he possibly has got something more viable to offer his kids than his single ex.
Dec 3rd, 2008
LORIKEET
Glen:
The scenario you describe in relation to children of divorce isn’t the one that I’ve seen.
People with more household income can “buy” and “bribe” the children even though they have a very poor track record of parenting.
I could cite several cases of older children deserting their mothers purely to partake of greener financial pastures and greater personal freedoms that have damaged both their education and psyche – instead of staying where they are well fed, supervised, loved, disciplined, get plenty of sleep and are doing well at school.
Naomi:
Until you are willing to accept that women also contribute to a lot of relationship problems, and also stop comparing them with victims of paedophilia, it is not worth discussing any of it with you.
A grown woman is not a child. She can say “No” to a lot of the things that you quite accurately describe. But not all abusive relationships contain all of these elements.
Some men may want to blame women unduly sometimes, but you seem to want to blow everything out of all proportion – and not just on this topic.
You appear to have no problem using verbal “violence” against other people yourself.
My father tried to prevent my mother from visiting Grandma by saying he needed her at home to make his lunch. So she made a lovely salad and left it in the fridge before leaving. Guess what? He didn’t eat it, and my mother then didn’t go out.
I was just a kid when I saw this, but here is what I would have done. I would have said, “Gee, it’s a pity you weren’t hungry when I went out. Next time, I will just leave you to prepare whatever food you would like to eat yourself.” And continue to visit my mother.
When I go to visit my grandchildren in Canberra, a similar scenario seems to apply. We go to the other grandparents place to eat, but they never come to myours. When I asked my son why this is happening, he says the other grandma cannot leave “the baby” (manipulative husband) behind.
Dec 3rd, 2008
Dolphins
Lorikeet: women don’t get testicular cancer. Nobody complains about campaigns to raise awareness of testicular cancer being aimed at one gender. Men do get breast cancer, in lesser numbers than women, and I know for a fact that women involved in breast cancer awareness campaigns welcome men brave enough to say that they have suffered it too. I don’t think it is unfair to raise awareness of. It is not sexist to have a day for raising awareness of something particular to one group. Statistics show us that disproportionate numbers of women (and children) are victims of Domestic violence – as I said before, in their own home. The intent of White Ribbon Day is, I understand, to raise awareness of that. If men who are victims of domestic violence, or other kinds of violence, want to organise and raise awareness of their cause there is nothing stopping them – women didn’t get given the vote, nor equal pay, nor the right to own their own property on a plate- they had to organise and win influential people over to their cause. Men may feel inhibited by societal attitudes from speaking out about breast cancer ot violence int he home. Societal attitudes once regarded women as unfit to be educated, or to be doctors, etc. They overcame this .. I’d support any man who wanted to stand up against violence done to men by women, or men. You may enjoy this song written in support of the equal pay for equal work campaign in the 1960s. http://unionsong.com/u263.html
Dec 3rd, 2008
Glen
Yes Lorikeet – there are two sides to the story!
Dec 3rd, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
Glen –
“WRD was originally about men coming together from their personal convictions to protest against violence against women – not women manipulating men to do so.” Funny, Glen, Andrew doesn’t sound as those he was manipulated. The young man from Deal or NO Deal (I’ve forgotten his name, sorry) he doesn’t sound like he was ‘manipulated’, nor do the Attorneys General around the country, or sportsmen who’ve come out against violence towards women.
Glen – Yes Lorikeet – there are two sides to the story!
Yes, Glen, and Lorikeet is the expert on both sides. She’s arguing against all the reality of people in DV situations. She’s made claims about her mother’s attitude when she married her father. How the hell does she know that?
LORIKEET – “Naomi:Until you are willing to accept that women also contribute to a lot of relationship problems, and also stop comparing them with victims of paedophilia, it is not worth discussing any of it with you.” Excuse me, it just so happens to be a fact, that men who abuse women often abuse kids as well. And when there’s a question of kids being sexually abused, as with women, the overwhelming number of perpetrators just happens to be men. Because I repeat the stats, not my stats, police stats, you accuse me of having a dark and ulterior motive.
You accuse me of all sorts of things, while you, out of your own mouth, put your mother as a contributor to her own violent reality. Amazing! You knew who she was, how she felt, how she reacted as a young married women, and you weren’t even old enough to know – you weren’t even born – but you know, that your mother contributed to her own violation. Incredible!
You refuse to answer the legitimate question? If a stranger had raped your mother, would you keep on with the nonsense, that she ‘contributed’ to her own experiences of violence, rape and humiliation? Are you really saying, that in some instances of rape, the victim deserved it? Why is that? Because a marriage certific
Dec 3rd, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
(cont) Why is that? Because a marriage certificate said, that refusing to have sex with her abusive husband warranted a violent act of rape? Why won’t you answer the questions I raised? You attack my stance, not just on this issue, but every issue I’ve responded to, and used all embracing conclusive assumptions about my motives – as though I’m the one who’s responsible for the damning stats against the male species – that doesn’t make me a man hater, it makes me a woman who’s aware of the realities and is sick to death of the appeasers for mens revolting and abusive behaviour. People in a loving equal relationship, don’t have to worry about the person who’s at least 20 kilos heavier, 30 cms taller, and manipulates the entire world around his needs – perceived or actual – to the detriment of those HE PROFESSES TO LOVE – his kids.
I don’t know what part of this sorry saga is so difficult to comprehend. Men who abuse women are inadequate. They use their physical superiority to serve their selfish narcissistic needs! They treat the people they profess to love worse than any outside person would. Have you no comprehension of how demeaning it is to realize that? Many women can’t leave. Many women who leave are killed after they’ve left. Many women are fearful FOR their children – they know only too well how cold and cruel he can be. Some men continue to threaten years after the marriage ended! They use the same tactics. Threaten without witnesses! He comes across as calm and rational, and she? well, she can get emotional can’t she? His ‘calm’ word against hers?
No woman deserves to be raped – and certainly not by the father of her children. LORIKEET – when you stated that your mother was a contributer to her experiences of violence via rape – you just let your father off the hook! He’s still doing it! He’s still winning! You just let him do it again, and get away with it – AGAIN! I’m weary now!
Dec 3rd, 2008
Iain Hall
John Surname
You have for a very long time insisted on trotting out that quote and putting forward your suggestion that it means that I am condoning domestic violence Now If you were to quote my words in their proper context, or even to provide a link to where I said it all would be able to see that you are grossly misrepresenting my position.
The complete passage follows
Women who goad, nag and belittle their partners must accept some responsibility for the consequences of their actions. I don’t condone men lashing out under such continued provocation but I can understand it. So lets be real here domestic violence is bad but it is about an unhealthy relationship dynamic rather than the vice and virtue inherent in each of the genders.
I draw readers attention to the fact that I emboldened the word “some” and that rather than trying to excuse any domestic violence by men I make it clear that I do not in anyway condone it further my final sentence here is most important because it clearly states the crux of my concerns about White Ribbon day and the feminist understanding of the issue of domestic violence.
Quoting out of context is a very dishonest tactic and I am not surprised that you repeatedly stoop to it when it comes to this issue because you lack the personal integrity to do otherwise.
Dec 4th, 2008
LORIKEET
Now here’s a little piece of wisdom that came from my 16-year-old son on the email last night. He was talking about a male with significant problems who has no interest in changing his life, despite huge amounts of help.
“No one can help you if don’t want to help yourself.”
This is why it is not a good idea for Naomi to keep portraying grown women as innocent child-like victims, and even blaming their children (including myself) in the most abusive ways.
How is that going to change what happens in the world?
Iain:
I think we also need to look at why the woman is doing the goading, nagging and belittling.
I’ve known that to happen when the man is completely ignoring the woman – I mean really shutting her out. In the instance I’m thinking of, the man was trying to orchestrate his own dismissal from the relationship by driving the woman mad to the point where she asked him to leave.
Why was he doing this? Because if he had simply left the woman and little children on their own, he could not have coped with the guilt. Instead he could go and tell everyone that he had been cruelly kicked out.
This is why I have no trust of statistics relating to who has ended a relationship. It used to be said that 60% of relationships were ended by women, but there are various ways of ending a relationship which aren’t even considered, coming from either side.
I am not of course saying that all nagging, belittling and goading have the same causation. I can think of quite a few more reasons why that kind of stuff happens.
When 2 people marry, they’re supposed to be in love. Very often, a lot of bad water has passed under the bridge before DV (whether verbal or physical) occurs.
I think it is very important that people understand that they need to behave in an assertive manner, and also learn to respect one another as equal adults.
Dec 4th, 2008
Chuck
Rewriting history again, Iain? You added the word “some” to your post.
Adding words to posts to try and dig yourself out of a hole is a very dishonest tactic and I am not surprised that you repeatedly stoop to it because you lack the personal integrity to do otherwise.
Shaking head compraid.
Dec 4th, 2008
Iain Hall
Lorrikeet
I agree that we can not take anything about someone else’s relationship at face value and that we do have to look deeper to understand the dynamic, of which the actual violence is only a part.
Chuck
you are an idiot! the word “some” is also in the quote posted by Surname, please explain how I could possibly added to that?
Dec 4th, 2008
Chuck
That’s because Surname got it after you edited your post. Back when you first made it the word ’some’ wasn’t there.
You made a stupid comment, Iain. And you are embarrassed by it. Most people admit their errors – you never do.
Dec 4th, 2008
Glen
Naomi,
Like I said before, I fully support WRD – I just don’t agree with the way the campaign has been run by excluding men and even boys as victims of DV and demonising them by implying that they are all abusers.
We have nothing to lose by joining the campaign, but I don’t believe we have much to gain whilst the campaign is being run this way.
As it stands more men die from DV than women. The stats I have read say that 70 women are killed by their husbands or partners each year whilst well over 1000 men commit suicide. Men are in great need of help and support. By treating them all as prospective women bashers will only be counterproductive.
Yes all those men you mention support WRD, however it wasn’t men in Australia that initiated the movement here. All I get from your statement as just how much men are “hen pecked” in Australia.
Dec 4th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET – “This is why it is not a good idea for Naomi to keep portraying grown women as innocent child-like victims, and even blaming their children (including myself) in the most abusive ways.”
You really are a piece of work? Positively amazing! You throw the equivalent of a hand grenade into the discussion, and then you stand back and wait, and when someone (me) challenges you on your assertions (about another person’s reactions/life experiences etc) you then accuse them of the activities you engaged in, and take offence at their ‘offensive remarks’ when your original claims were not substantiated, and the person denigrated (in this case your mother) didn’t get the chance to either explain or defend herself? And I’m the one with the problem?
LORIKEET – “I think we also need to look at why the woman is doing the goading, nagging and belittling.” This obviously assumes, that women aren’t goaded, nagged or belittled? I DON’T GIVE A HOOT IF A PERSON NAGS ETC, IT’S NO EXCUSE FOR VIOLENCE! Do you understand??
You still refuse to answer the question. If your mother had been raped by a stranger in her home, what action would you have taken then? The same? Let him off the hook?
It’s the attitudes of yourself and other like minded people on this site, that thousands of women don’t seek your support – they get the big kiss off the first time they tell their story – their oppressive reality; – it frequently takes them years to take that chance again. Some don’t live long enough! It’s the doubting, and the openly sexist and unjust reactions/assumptions that has caused DV to reach today’s proportions.
“I think it is very important that people understand that they need to behave in an assertive manner, and also learn to respect one another as equal adults.” LORIKEET – In abusive/toxic relationships, there’s no equality – that’s why the abuse takes place? Are you really obtuse, or just trying to show your ignorance? When a husband/partner uses psychological/se
Dec 4th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
(cont)/social and/or financial abuse, he is obviously not showing love. They are not compatible in a healthy relationship! You need to understand, that there’s some pretty clever sick manipulative behaviour going on in a DV environment. There’s a gradual progression of oppressive behaviour – there’s his remorse (she hopes it’s genuine?) she’s devalued a little at a time, and it’s almost impossible to make difficult decisions when your self esteem has been demolished. There’s also the crazy feeling of ‘guilt’? He keeps saying I’m stupid, I try very hard, nothing works, so I must be stupid?
People can understand a hostage situation, when the person being held is reduced to mush by the end. We now provide counselling for those victims. The newsreader advises viewers in advance if “the following scenes might upset some viewers”, but when trauma, terrorism goes on each and every day in her home (where she and her chn should feel safe) there is nobody who can provide support or couselling. With the unjust attitudes of obviously too many people, she just has to make the best of it – hope, that while she’s the one being hit/bashed/denigrated, the kids will be OK, as long as they receive her love and care!
LORIKEET – “When 2 people marry, they’re supposed to be in love. Very often, a lot of bad water has passed under the bridge before DV (whether verbal or physical) occurs.”
I recall a woman telling me, that early in her marriage she went to see the Chamber Magistrate – she had two toddlers. Her good friend took them home for the night, and to the CM the next day. His advice? Told her to go home, cook his favourite meal, and be a good wife. He was supposed to be a legal person protecting people, and giving her advice to protect her and her kids. It took her about 16 yrs to try again? Some of the people on this site are just like that Chamber Magistrate – some are worse. Violence is a crime! Condoning crime/s is a crime!
Dec 4th, 2008
LORIKEET
Chuck:
I think you have to at least admit that a lot men (not all) don’t end up having potentially violent arguments/disputes with their partners out of the blue, without some kind of input coming from the other side.
People do some strange things, often repeating behaviours learned from their parents. Here’s one I’ve found particularly eyebrow-raising.
A man I know was married to a woman who would open the fridge door and start ranting and raving about having nothing to feed her kids, because the fridge was empty. (The fridge would be full!)
However, her mother used to do the same thing, because the husband gave her no money and there was actually almost nothing in there.
The man divorced the woman because she did sex with other men (mostly father figures), and he thought most of her problems stemmed from the fact she was sexually abused by her stepfather when she was a child.
Iain:
We also have to remember that some people become violent when they have been drinking, without any real provocation. I think alcoholism is responsible for a large number of social ills.
For example, I’ve seen the results of glassing attacks in pubs on TV numerous times recently. One young woman even lost an eye, but there have been hundreds of victims both male and female.
Dec 5th, 2008
Iain Hall
Chuck
You and Surname have pawned yourselves on this one.
You lot have been quoting my statement since almost immediately after I wrote it, firstly here then here and It was also quoted in Legal Eagles blog shortly after I wrote it. And in every instance the word some was part of the quote.
Cheers Comrade
Iain Hall.
Dec 5th, 2008
Chuck
Iain: I withdraw my allegation that you added the word ’some’. However, I still don’t think it changes the context or intent behind your quote. I’m sure you will beg to differ though.
Lorikeet:
I think you have to at least admit that a lot men (not all) don’t end up having potentially violent arguments/disputes with their partners out of the blue, without some kind of input coming from the other side
No, I believe domestic violence is about power.
Dec 5th, 2008
LORIKEET
Chuck:
I see. So out of the blue, you think 2 people can go from wedded bliss to the wife being bashed.
Domestic violence may sometimes be about power, but there is also the issue of submission on one side.
When 2 people get drunk and bash one another, are they both on a power trip?
Dec 5th, 2008
Iain Hall
Lorikeet
The thing you have to keep in mind when considering what both John Surname and Chuck are saying about this topic is that both chaps are young, single and that the only long term relationships that either have had is with their own hands.
I am wondering though if the rise in the “laddette” culture among young women will mean a big change in the domestic violence demographic. This hard drinking emulation of young male yobbos must mean that we can expect laddetes to like wise be more willing to strike out when pissed
Dec 6th, 2008
LORIKEET
Iain:
Gee, your first paragraph is a bit below the belt, in more ways than one!
Yes, I saw the ladette culture on “Sixty Minutes”. I would much prefer it if young people could learn the better traits of being either male or female – or even just being a person.
Why anyone would be interested in almost killing themselves with alcohol and then treating others as nothing more than sexual conquests with the specific aim of psychologically abusing them is beyond me.
I think as a society we also need to learn the difference between co-dependency and love – also teaching everyone that respect, rights and responsibility are indivisible from one another.
Perhaps if the society taught a cohesive set of values, and also got rid of addictive substances, my teenager would not have recently lost 2 of his friends to suicide. Now he’s a bit of a mess himself.
Dec 6th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET – “Domestic violence may sometimes be about power, but there is also the issue of submission on one side.” And you know this because??? Have you ever watched a movie about bank robbers, or a seige, where the offender has a gun or some other power over the victims – and they agree to do what he?usually a he, tells them in order to stay alive – it’s called fear Lorikeet? He’s bigger, has a gun/s and tells the victims he’ll use it. They submit? What the hell would you do? Truly! In the majority of heterosexual relationships, the man is physically superior – that’s the reality, and it’s enough in the wrong hands to cause fear, either for the woman and/or her children. FEAR causes submission! I know of at least 3 women with an aquired (irreversible)brain injury caused by their husbands’ violence.
THE QUESTION AGAIN – If a stranger had raped your mother, either in her home or on the street somewhere, would you have reacted in a different manner? All you need to do is answer yes or no! It’s just a simple question – simple answer required?
Where DV is a reality, and the wife is abused in a variety of ways, he sure as hell isn’t acting out like he’s in ‘domestic bliss’? Only one of them took the vows and meant them – and it wasn’t him. The husband/partner usually starts out slowly, and progresses as life goes on. You’d have to see a woman being attacked on the street with a baseball bat or ?before you get the message. I find this most frustrating and depressing.
IAIN – ” ….that both chaps are young, single and that the only long term relationships that either have had is with their own hands.” What an insulting thing to say, what a put down. Do you have a whole library of offensive put downs, or do you just recycle a few? Thank goodness they’re young and have those views – gives me some optimism for the future. Hopefully, we won’t have to wait until all the older misogynists die off before violence against women and kids declines!
Dec 6th, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
I know about this because I have seen it at first hand with my parents. I have never personally seen a single mark on my mother, but I know she handled my father badly from the beginning, and so does she. If you can’t accept that, the problem must lie with you.
Nothing is simple in regard to domestic violence. A woman doesn’t start out her married life being threatened with a gun by a bank robber. The main thing that causes submission/domination is refusing to do anything to stop the behaviour.
The way in which DV was treated in times past bears little relevance to being raped outside your own home. The police didn’t come to DV of any kind, unless someone was being murdered.
I don’t think my father was heavily into physical abuse, certainly not while I lived there. He mostly used other methods of control and intimidation, which would never have worked on me.
I think you would be much less frustrated and depressed if you would only recognise the fact that a woman has the power to terminate bad relationships or nip bad behaviours in the bud by speaking up for herself early in the piece.
While you keep viewing women as if they are powerless children, and blaming men for everything, you will not be helping ANYONE at all. Those men need hel
We are living in 21st Century, in which women are now successfully fighting back against rapists, people who rob shops at knife/gunpoint etc.
I considered what I would do if someone was robbing a bank years ago, after one of my aunts was made to lie down on the floor with others – also after my sister’s 16-year-old friend had her brains blown out outside a bank in 1973.
If there was the slightest opportunity to stop the bank robber, I would give it a go. I’m not afraid of dying in support of the common good.
As for sexual harassment in the workplace, I have never met anyone (young or old) that I could not deal with very quickly and efficiently, without any ongoing animosity between us.
Dec 7th, 2008
Iain Hall
Naomi
Do you have a whole library of offensive put downs, or do you just recycle a few?
When my interlocutors are as deserving of scorn as John and Chuck are why would you expect me to sweetness and light in return?
However in your praise of them you make the classic mistake of confusing their talk with their walk as it is very easy for young ideologues to sprout the “correct” platitudes and slogans and then go on to do precisely what they have been denouncing,
Hopefully, we won’t have to wait until all the older misogynists die off before violence against women and kids declines!
Sadly I think that you will see the nature of the domestic violence change as I suggest in my comment to Lorikeet, especially if feminists like you maintain that Domestic Violence is an artefact of misogynist thinking by men rather than admitting that it is a social problem for both genders.
Dec 7th, 2008
LORIKEET
Iain:
Could you stop confusing feminism with feminazism, please?
I think Naomi needs to look at her own very offensive putdowns and unwarranted condemnation before criticising others. Such attitudes only increase misogynistic attitudes.
I think there are plenty of misogynists and misandrists around, but hopefully their numbers are decreasing.
Dec 7th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
IAIN – “However in your praise of them you make the classic mistake of confusing their talk with their walk” And you know this because??And”..as it is very easy for young ideologues to sprout the “correct” platitudes and slogans and then go on to do precisely what they have been denouncing” Yes it is easy, but you have no guarantee that they’ll behave that way do you? Each yr more men are
Do you blame people whose motor bikes or cars are stolen too? I’ve never said that men are not abused, bashed etc, but the big difference is, that most of those crimes are committed by other men. DV is in a different category, and as stated previously, the reason why it’s so destructive to the victims, is that the perpetrators (in overwhelming numbers of cases) are male who profess to love them. Have you asked yourself, if your attitude is coloured by your attitude to violence per se?Or women per se?
LORIKEET – When I speak of my mother in a derogatory manner,or demean other women, you can then categorise me as you wish. You refuse to answer my question re your mother being repeatedly raped. I think you should take a damned good hard look at yourself. I’ve been involved in a voluntary capacity as President of a Womens’ Health Centre, a supporter for women injured at work, and have visited many women at home, isolated and victimised for having the audacity to take out a Workers Comp claim against their bosses for causing their terrible lifetime of pain & disability; I’ve supported women, physically and sexually abused by Insurance Co doctors,and accompanied them to Court. I have a history of being supportive, and have never sold out other women. And, I would be overwhelmed with joy if I could buy/sew clothes again for my late little Mum (4′ 9″), tell her the cricket score, have her meet my last 3 gorgeous grandkids, or just see her beautiful smile!
Dec 8th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET “When my mother and father got married, Mum allowed Dad to treat her like a slave – even encouraged it. Every time he called, she came running, despite the fact she was very busy herself in the kitchen, as well as holding down a full-time job.
This reduced his respect for her as a person. As a result, he bullied her more and more, pushing for a boundary line he never succeeded in finding. (He found mine when I was only 14.)
Every time my mother reacted with appeasement, his respect decreased further.
Things were not too bad when I was a child, but by the time I was 28 and had been married for 10 years, he was raping her. He hated her. She hated him. He raped her because she wouldn’t have sex.
All of us girls and my brother tried to get our mother out of there, even offered her accommodation, but she wouldn’t leave.”
Remember, these are your words! You assumed your mother’s thinking; reasons for her responses to your father’s abuse; and you showed a huge lack of legitimate anger,resentment, outrage, compassion etc on her behalf. Neither you nor your siblings thought to report these CRIMES to the police, women’s health advocate, your mothers doctor etc. I was amazed, angry, appalled and outraged that your mother was brutalized for years, and responded accordingly, and now, I’M the one with the problem? Amazing!
It’s only a 150 yrs or so,since men were legally able to hit women with a stick etc,as long as it wasn’t any thicker than a man’s thumb – hence, ‘the rule of thumb’ saying; that a woman was considered as part of her husband’s property, to ‘chastise’ as he saw fit – that’s why it’s taken yrs to change laws. We still have a long way to go, that is painfully obvious. In NSW the majority of injuries etc that present to A & Emergency wards are related to DV. (NSW Dept of Health booklet-front cover-2003)
IAIN, LORIKEET – You both came out of the blocks (read your own posts)antagonistic and demeaning to the whole concept of WRD?
Dec 8th, 2008
Iain Hall
Naomi
you have no guarantee that they’ll behave that way do you?
Certainly but that does not alter the fact that you are assuming that their mouthing what you consider to be the right words means that they will act as you wish men would act either
Do you blame people whose motor bikes or cars are stolen too?
It is reasonable to impute some responsibility for the theft of cars and motor bikes , for instance if the keys are left in when the machine is parked in a dodgy area.
DV is in a different category,
You see this quote contains the point of difference between us I am quite willing to accept you general concern about the betrayal of the love bond is something of concern but I think that you will find that the same applies to the women who abuse their partners as well. You see there is NO NEED to demonise men in general as you continually do while addressing DV.
your attitude to violence per se?
I abhor All domestic violence, and think that it is a social scourge that we should seek to address, so what exactly are you trying to imply with this question?
Or women per se?
Because My wife and I do a role swap (she works and I look after the kids) most of my social contact is with women and I get on very well with them, I know it is a cliché but my closest friends are in fact women.
IAIN, LORIKEET – You both came out of the blocks (read your own posts)antagonistic and demeaning to the whole concept of WRD?
I assume that this is a why question if it is the answer is simply that the WRD concept id flawed at the most fundamental level because of its innate misandry and because it does not focus upon the totality of the real nature of domestic violence
.
Dec 8th, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
It doesn’t appear to me as if YOU have any respect for ANYONE.
You aren’t an expert on my parents’ relationship or how problems were handled. You don’t even respect my mother enough to accept that she SAYS she contributed to the problem at the beginning of the relationship.
The person who has the antagonistic and demeaning attitude is most certainly you. Not one of these men seems to have YOUR kind of problem.
You seem to have enough anger, resentment and outrage for the whole human race, and you think you can assume that other people don’t have any feelings.
Dec 8th, 2008
Chuck
However in your praise of them you make the classic mistake of confusing their talk with their walk as it is very easy for young ideologues to sprout the “correct” platitudes and slogans and then go on to do precisely what they have been denouncing,
Urm…what?
You and Surname have pawned yourselves on this one
And how does one ‘pawn(ed)’ one’s self exactly, Iain?
Naomi: Welcome to Iain’s debating technique and watch him get lost in a maze of his own discombobulation.
Dec 8th, 2008
Chuck
Also, where does Iain get the idea that I am young and single? Is Iain saying that if I’m old and taken that I will be as bitter and regretful about my decisions in life as he is?
Dec 8th, 2008
LORIKEET
Chuck:
I think he is saying that older people have more life experience and therefore a broader perspective on personal experiences.
I would still like an answer to my question as to whether you think 2 drunken people bashing one another are both on a power trip.
Dec 9th, 2008
Iain Hall
Chuck
as you have corresponded with me in your real name and I have seen your photo at your blog and in your face book profile I am pretty sure that you are young (around your mid to late twenties I would guess). You have likewise made it very clear about your marital status at Random Brainwave when you wrote about a casual liaison there.
You are however entirely mistaken if you think that I am at all bitter and regretful about my own life.
I take particular note that you do no repudiate my citing of your one long term relationship though…
Cheers Comrade.
Dec 9th, 2008
Andrew Bartlett
That’s enough personal commentary – please keep comments on topic
Dec 9th, 2008
LORIKEET
I’m still wondering how we are to relate DV to the theft of a motor bike or car. Any answers, Naomi?
I’m finding it interesting that Iain has a lot of female friends. As the mother of 3 boys, I got to know a lot of men in the Scouting Movement. Perhaps this is why we have a similar perspective.
When I went to training weekends, I was always the only woman in a group of 6. Other groups seemed to have 2 or more.
At first, one of men tried to treat me as if I could never tie a knot, but once I outperformed them all at orienteering and first aid, they gained a certain respect.
When I came down with a cold, a really rough truck driver went and got me some breakfast.
When 3 guys were selected to write a song and none of them could do it, I quickly wrote one for them and set it to music.
By the end of the weekend, I didn’t even have to carry my own suitcase.
I guess we must show men (or women) what our individual strengths are, which wouldn’t include either submission or bashing.
Dec 9th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
IAIN – You have a problem with the stats. Do you think the ABS, individual state police records are fabricated; womens’ refuges; rape crisis people; that the medical evidence, stories etc are all a conspiracy against men? There has been a problem of gender imbalance in this society (and many others) for centuries. It’s slowly changeing, but it’s agonisingly slow at times, to say the least. You and Lorikeet started out with a great degree of antagonism and anger – I responded in like manner. I get so fed up with people who are so threatened by the concept of female equality, that they are willing to distort facts to sell the lies. When this distorts the reality of violence towards women and kids, it makes me very angry, and very sad! Part of my so-called ‘aggression’ is frustration!
LORIKEET – You can’t get away from the fact, that you pre-judged your mother, took the liberty of telling her personal story without her consent, and now your best line of defence is to attack! When people insist on hugging their dangerous and damaging views, in spite of evidence to the contrary, yes it makes me bloody angry. I’m not going to deny that. I feel I’m entitled, as you haven’t come up with any evidence that disproves that, not just from this country, but around the world. What have you read?
To quote a well worn american saying, “I’m done”! Simple and to the point!
Dec 9th, 2008
LORIKEET
I make no apology to anyone, male or female, for trying to broaden people’s perspectives on the causes of, and solutions to, domestic violence. It’s only when these are addressed that we might see less relationship damage occurring.
It makes me sad that some people cannot understand that it is THEY who are hugging their own damaging – not sure about dangerous – views; and who cannot even control their keyboardal horsewhipping of other posters.
However, I have accepted the fact that even a truckload of RPGs couldn’t blast their way through the brick wall of some people’s stubborn attitudes.
Dec 10th, 2008
Chuck
I would still like an answer to my question as to whether you think 2 drunken people bashing one another are both on a power trip.
I would say that these people may need some relationship and or alcohol counseling, Lorikeet.
Dec 10th, 2008
Iain Hall
Naomi
I no problem at all with statistics. In fact I have said that I accept your stats (as far as they go). But when you get down to it to understand the problem of domestic violence none of us can think that looking at statistics is going to do anything about solving the problem. All that your quoting statistics is going to do is demonstrate that DV is a substantial problem and there is no argument from either Lorkeet or me on that score.
As I said previously when it gets down to it any domestic violence, is really the end stage of failed negotiations between human beings and the real way to address the problem IMHO is to teach people how to negotiate better to achieve what they want from a relationship and to accept compromises long the way if what they want is beyond what their significant other is willing to do..
As I see it if the approach to DV was more gender neutral and more focused upon improving the way people relate to each other, rather than being a femnazi finger pointing exercise it would ultimately be more successful.
Surely we can agree that a diminution of all forms of domestic violence is what we are aiming for here?
Dec 10th, 2008
Glen
Iain,
I agree will you 100% and from the media coverage I’ve seen so far, WRD has been mostly portrayed as a day for domestic violence in general and not gender specific to women and girls. I think, as usual, there is a silent majority out there that believes DV is not as simple as the Office for Women would like us to believe it is and are acting accordingly.
Dec 11th, 2008
LORIKEET
Glen:
I think you’re right. I decided to run this issue past women at the hairdressing salon, ranging in age from 25 to 65.
Without exception, they thought EVERYONE should be included in WRD, and that each person in a relationship was responsible for holding up their own side.
However, it became clear that the salon owner was allowing herself to be taken for granted at home, despite having 2 little children and a business to run. During the conversation, I noticed her discomfort. I think some people believe that doing everything yourself is a form of empowerment rather than slavery – until they get sick of it, that is.
I think if there was greater access to pre-relationship education, fewer problems would be occurring. At the same time, “Me Syndrome” would need to meet its demise.
Dec 12th, 2008
Glen
I agree – empowerment can lose its zing and can then become a burden. One can only do so much. At the moment my wife is pregnant and she has spent a lot of time whilst feeling sick watching me cook and clean for the family after I get home from work. Good thing we are still in love. The “ME” syndrome needs to become the “US and our family” syndrome.
I just read some more stats – of the 70 people, not just women, that are killed each year from DV, 25 are men. I read in one article that it was 70 women that were killed in the last year. Someone is diddling the stats to suit their own ends!
There you go – why not send and email to the Office of Women revealing your research. I wonder what response you would get?
Dec 13th, 2008
Jason Wilson
Gee this thread is depressing.
Enough of the moral relativism (something I had come to believe that the right was exercised by). The overwhelming majority of domestic violence in inflicted by men, on women. We should condemn it in the strongest possible terms – as far as I’m concerned any bloke who lays a finger on a woman doesn’t deserve to be called a man, and won’t until he recognises that he has a problem.
If WRD is about commemorating the terrible impact of domestic violence, everyone in the community should support it. Full stop. Any hair-splitting amounts to an attempt to excuse domestic violence, and I’d suggest that anyone doing that either needs help themselves, or simply doesn’t have a first-hand understanding what the impact of domestic violence is.
Anyone who thinks that moving to address domestic violence constitutes some kind of feminist conspiracy, or that beating a woman is ever justified – well, i pity you. You’ve lost touch your sense of right and wrong.
Dec 13th, 2008
LORIKEET
Glen and Jason:
Yes, I agree with both of you to a large extent.
No one is excusinig domestic violence, but we have to look closely at causes before we can find solutions to the problem. Just wearing a white ribbon on a particular day isn’t going to help anybody much.
“Me Syndrome” cannot simply be replaced by an “US and our family syndrome”. That’s a nuclear family. I have relatives who live like that. They don’t give a rat’s backside about anyone outside of their own 4 walls.
It has to be “US, our family, our extended family, friends, neighbours, associates and others in need of support” – as in a “Community Syndrome”.
Dec 13th, 2008
Dolphins
Thanks Jason. I’d begun to think there was nobody with any sense reading this. The violence at home I suffered as a child was not something I asked for, nor deserved, though in those days (the 1960s) the child was treated as if the whip marks and bruises somehow proved that I in some way deserved this. Whether or not my mother was (and still is) an annoying person does not justify her having plates full of food thrown in her face while we kids ran for our lives. My grandmother did not deserve to be dragged around the house by the hair as her husband interrogated her as to why she’d come home 5 minutes late from work. There are a few people here talking through their hats, to put it politely. I issue a challenge to them to simply say that they oppose violence in the home – if they oppose it in the football club or on the streets as well, all to the good, but if a person is not safe in their own home then we have a pretty poor society. People who make excuses for this make me wonder what they are like in their own home.
Dec 13th, 2008
Glen
Jason
No one is trying to excuse DV or saying that beating a woman is justified.
The concern is that WRD is about violence against women and girls and all men and boys are seen as perpetrators. Not as you suggest – “just about DV in general”.
General marketing of DV victims even excludes boys which is unbelievable (see the childwise marketing material).
The definition of DV also includes emotional abuse which means that we need to include a broader range of stats than hospital admissions records.
Roughly 400 women commit suicide and or are killed by their partners (including female partners) each year in Australia whilst over 1200 men commit suicide or are killed by their partners each year.
Deciding who the perpetrators are becomes tricky. A man uses his fists, the woman used words or takes the kids away from their father, she ends up in hospital, he commits suicide – who is worst off? who is the perpetrator? who is the victim?
DV by anyone is not acceptable behaviour by anyone.
It is my belief that a concerted effort to reduce DV should be gender balanced to be effective. Not the one sided Feminist perspective that has been shoved into our TV sets in the last 12 months.
Jason do you care about all the children who have lost their fathers due to the emotional abuse they suffered that drove them to end their lives?
Perhaps you need to rethink your sense of right and wrong or the real impact of DV?
Dec 14th, 2008
LORIKEET
Glen:
I think it is also important to remember that DV or emotional abuse by girlfriends/spouses is only one cause of the high rate of male suicide.
I think it has been well accepted for a long time that men are more susceptible to self-harm due to their biochemical/hormonal makeup. They are also generally less resilient emotionally.
We must also look at the impact of illegal drugs when assessing the suicide rate. Yesterday a solicitor told me that they are still freely available and consumed in great quantities in our society, despite many recent huge drug busts by the federal police.
When I mentioned 2 recent teenage suicides, drugs were at the forefront of her mind.
Accidental “overdoses” of alcohol kill plenty of people as well.
In answer to one of your questions, I’d say that the kids are worst off in the scenario you describe. Sometimes the woman takes the kids away from the father because she is in fear for their lives (and hers). This is why there should be easy emergency access to family and individual counselling.
Dec 14th, 2008
Glen
I agree Lorikeet, drug abuse is a huge problem and men tend to turn to drugs when depressed more than women. Men and boys need a lot more support than what they currently receive.
Regarding DV – How can society intervene in the earlier stages of relationship and family breakdown and actually help parents work out their issues? Help might be available but often is accessed when it’s too late and the relationship is in a state that is beyond repair.
Dec 15th, 2008
red crab
a lot of people try to make exuses for there downfalls instead of admiting them and taking responsability for there own actions .it would seem the way of the world now its the ,its not my fault syndrom.
my father who died just this year gave me two simple rules to live by.
1. respect your parents
2. never strike a woman.
it has worked for me just how simple can it get.
the world realy needs to get rid of the ppl who turn black and white into gray .then get back to the simple rules that humans have live buy for thousands of years .
actions ,responsobility.and consequenses.
to solve the problems of dv we need to teach this to our children now.with no gray lines!
Dec 15th, 2008
LORIKEET
Red Crab:
Yes, your 2 simple rules are good, but I think it is dangerous to have a black-and-white attitude to almost anything.
Perhaps rule no. 3 should be, “Don’t wait until your husband is asleep, and then break both of his legs with a bat.” See???
Glen:
Gee, that’s a tough question. Maybe we should have mandatory pre-relationship education, but even we little people can make a difference.
About a year ago, I think I might have saved my youngest sister’s marriage. When I went there for a meal, she started saying she wanted to kick Mr X out. He was only in the next room and could hear everything. (Between you and me, both of them are lazy and selfish.)
So I started asking her questions.
“If you kick Mr X out, who will get the lids off your jars?”
“Who will mow the lawn?”
“Who will move heavy furniture?”
“Who will bring in a middle income?”
“Who will help you look after the kids?”
“Where will you live when the house gets sold?”
“How will you pay the rent/mortgage?”
“What will you do about visitation if a drug addict moves in with Mr X?”
Then I gave her the idea that no one is perfect and that no one will ever love the children like Mr X does. Other men don’t want your children anyway. I said my sister and Mr X need to work together and make compromises.
After that, I sorted out problems associated with children squabbling over household chores by helping her draw up a roster. Maybe the adults needed one as well.
I think a lot of relationships break down on midlife issues and/or the dreaded “Me Syndrome”. Some of the books around relating to midlife issues can end up working against you.
My husband read a book called, “Fortysomething”, written by a male psychologist and decided he had missed out on life. He also read another book called “The Road Less Travelled” by M Scott Peck, which doesn’t take any account at all of the needs of children.
I can thoroughly unrecommend both.
The GP who recommended
Dec 15th, 2008
LORIKEET
Sorry, Glen – caught out again.
The GP who recommended the second book had his wife (also a doctor) leave him to raise their 4 children on his own.
I thought it was poetic justice.
Dec 15th, 2008
Glen
So Red Crab who is wrong and who is right when you and your partner cannot agree on an issue?
I am guessing you would need to assess the “grey areas” of each person’s position to work out who is being most reasonable in order the resolve the issue, but in doing that you become a person you believe the world needs to get rid of!
Dec 15th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET “I make no apology to anyone, male or female, for trying to broaden people’s perspectives on the causes of, and solutions to, domestic violence. It’s only when these are addressed that we might see less relationship damage occurring” And you use the same protocols and procedures when you judge other crimes of violence? Attacks in a pub by some hood who thinks using a broken glass on another human’s face is OK? Do you assess this crime in the same manner? A stolen car? Do you go into heavy disecting, putting in another point of view(person shouldn’t have left the car out in public? in their drive way? on the street just inviting it to be stolen?) I don’t recall you disecting other situations like you have with this subject? You just got on the band wagon with those, who really resent giving up any of their power over others, particularly women? Do you recite the response/s of a friend/s who had their car stolen? Disect their attitudes, demeanour, where they lived (shouldn’t live in an area with high crime rate – their own fault? contributed to the theft by poor life choices? partner/s?) Truly? Why single out DV? Why question the stats, when it’s very obvious, that you’ve read very little re articles/books/newspaper articles/watched documentaries/took notice of equivalent stats/actions overseas? There is never any excuse for violence! NONE! EVER!
As JASON, RED CRAB and others have stated – problems with and in a relationship have nothing to do with DV. There is no excuse to resort to violence – NONE! Kids deserve better than to live in an environment where there are threats, intimidation, physical/sexual violence, fear etc. If you have a problem at a major retail store, is there an ocassion when physical violence is warranted? No, of course not! At the service station, doctors, hospital? No of course not! EVER! Adults don’t sort out problems with fists! Not decent non violent adults-they sort out problems with their brains and tongues! NEVER violence!
Dec 15th, 2008
Glen
Naomi – I beg to differ – it is the tongue and brain that causes the most trouble and deaths.
Dec 16th, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
I thought you said you had butted out of this argument.
“Problems with and in a relationship have nothing to do with DV.”
That’s a very narrow view. If everyone thought like that, the rate of DV would increase exponentially.
If you want me to dissect stolen vehicles and glassings in pubs, when the opportunity arises, I will do it, no problem – but I will again be trying to look at all of the contributing factors and possible solutions, in addition to punishment of perpetrators.
On this thread, you have been told repeatedly that EVERYONE is against DV, but all you seem to want to do is accuse, insult and verbally disembowel people.
Please try to remember that the most successful counsellors look at all of the factors involved in a matter/situation, and then empower the counsellee to change what is happening.
The only band wagon I am on is the Lorikeet Band Wagon, but I’ve found that most of these men seem to be far more amenable to reasoned discussion than you.
Furthermore, a whole hairdressing salon full of women aged 25-65+ didn’t agree with your narrow view. The eldest, in fact, was the most vehemently opposed to your narrow aggressor/victim philosophy.
Dec 16th, 2008
ken
It would appear useful when discussing this issue that people tried to use slightly less personal pronouns.
Dec 17th, 2008
Bev Armstrong
Having read what you all say I find myself in a position of saying “look at the law changes in Victoria” It is Initially posible for a woman to KILL a man and claim “self defence” while a man cannot claim the same (the legislation is gender specific) Having watched my sons EX put him within an inch of his life and watched the police debate whether my bleeding son should be handcuffed (even as he was bleeding very badly) because only males can commit violence. Thank god he didnt die. However she got away with stabbing my son because she felt “threatened”
Dec 17th, 2008
John Harold
Having read all of these comments – many of them of them quite saddening – I don’t understand why an event which encourages men to oppose acts of violence against women generates such aggressive and hostile opposition (albeit all but one from men, as far as I can tell from the names)
The evidence from the vast majority of reviewed research reinforces the common sense assumption that most domestic violence is male against female.
This doesn’t deny the much smaller number of incidents of female violence against males, or even smaller amounts of violence between same sex couples …… it simple recognises the overwhelming evidence of where the main problem lies.
Which does rather make one wonder why some males protest so much against protests against violence towards women.
The very first comment on this thread suggested that this event which encourages men to renounce violence is somehow ‘man-hating’.
130 comments later, and even the biggest Neanderthals have not managed to give a single piece of evidence of how White Ribbon Day is ‘man-hating’.
Unless opposing male violence towards women is man-hating – which sadly proves the point.
very sadly, my fellow little boys
Dec 17th, 2008
Glen
John
I don’t believe that you have read all the comments unless you have decided to ignore a good number of them.
There is a wealth of evidence and perspectives in many comments.
DV is a very complicated issue and many people are concerned that the superficial promotion of DV by WRD is not appropriate or effective.
For a start why don’t you have a look at Child Wise’s web site and ask them why their promotional materials do not include boys as victims of child abuse? What conclusions can you draw from their position?
Dec 18th, 2008
Tony
John Harold
John Harold says: The evidence from the vast majority of reviewed research reinforces the common sense assumption that most domestic violence is male against female.
Is that right ? Look I havent been envolved in this argument before but if you believe that then its time you went back and checked your stats.
Abuse comes in many shapes and forms and from all the stats I’ve read …young males are the most likely to suffer from abuse.
Its comments like yours that may have sparked this somewhat strange debate they’e having here.
Tony
Dec 18th, 2008
LORIKEET
Tony:
I think it only becomes strange when people want to throw motor vehicle thefts and bank robberies into the mix.
To be perfectly fair, White Ribbon Day should be held for any person who has been a victim of Domestic Violence.
I don’t think it’s too hard to understand that WRD as it stands is exclusive.
John Harold:
Yes, please read the posts thoroughly before criticising. The one before yours might be a nice place to start.
Bev Armstrong:
Lots of anti-social policies seems to have been passed into law in Victoria in recent times. I think they must have a recidivist government.
Ken:
But where is your input?
Dec 18th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
Bev Armstrong – I can recall quite vividly, years ago, where men were able to plead manslaughter when they introduced ‘evidence’ of being taunted by their female partner, and were insulted by this intimidation. eg she taunted his sexual ability, size etc. Many judges accepted a minor plea – that the women was in some way responsible for her own usually violent death – she drove him to it – he killed her out of momentary rage! Conversly, women could not introduce ‘evidence’ that they killed the male partner after years of violent assaults? It wasn’t accepted, usually by male judges as just cause, even self defence; or she waited until he was asleep etc.I recall being involved with women in this position, interceding with others on their behalf. In many states, this still is par for the course. It is possible now, to have expert evidence re defensive and offensive wounds?
Not long ago, there were articles in the SMH that told of women going to the police station, sometimes in their night attire, to report DV, but then being charged themselves as the male insisted he was assaulted. Women were held overnight, and taken to Court the next day, still in their night attire. The bruises were found to be defensive wounds – self defence. Further, aboriginal women, with outstanding warrants for traffic infringements, who reported DV to the police, were held in the cells due to unrelated fines, only for minor offences. When this happens over a period of time, women are loathe to report offences of violence. Racism and sexism are often ingrained in police psyche. In fact, it wasn’t a long time ago, that a survey of NSW police revealed, that they thought it OK to give a woman a ‘biff’ to keep her in line, or ‘encourage’ her to engage in sexual activity.
GLEN DV is not a complicated issue at all. The same laws that apply to any other crime should be used in this instance. I find it amazing, that people are thrashing around with this. If it’s a crime to use violence on the
Dec 18th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
(cont) street, then it should be a crime in the home. That’s why I’ve been drawing attention to other areas of crime. LORIKEET, if you were as smart as you assert, you’d have taken in what and why I was referring to, instead of misquoting and belittling my examples, deliberately out of context. With the exception of yourself, the only people with a problem with the reality of DV are males. When I point this out, or the stats that show, that hetosexual women assaulted by their partners etc, make up the largest group in DV stats I’m classed as some man hating moron! That sadly, women who attempt to leave the relationship are still not safe – many are killed AFTER they leave, as are dozens of kids!
Only yesterday, a young woman was shot dead by her husband in Sydney, even though she’d taken out an AVO against him, which was still operative. Sadly, in NSW, the government, sucking up to the gun lobbly, changed the law, so that people with an AVO can apply for and receive a gun licence. This is just going to increase the deaths of victims of abuse. The husband in this case was later found dead -killed himself!
I abhor all forms of violence, particularly to kids, or when children even have to listen to violent arguments; this is also recognised as a form of child abuse. I fail to see what the problem is with recognising police stats etc. Just because I emphasize the high number of female victims, (as with rape) that doesn’t mean that I don’t recognise that men are also subjected to violence, or that I condone it – I don’t!
John Harold “The evidence from the vast majority of reviewed research reinforces the common sense assumption that most domestic violence is male against female.” Thank you! Phew!
Dec 18th, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
I find you are still ignoring all input outside of your own ideas.
No doubt you believe Bev Armstrong (above) is a non-person, along with all of the other female non-persons from the hairdressing salon.
Until you move beyond your narrow frame of reference, probably nothing will change for the better. If you keep inciting these men, it will not improve their impression of females per se.
You previously said you had 3 sons, just as I do. Therefore I don’t understand why you want to believe that only MALE BASHERS deserve to receive negative attention, while only FEMALE BASHEES are supported.
Perhaps you would like to give us a reason why ALL BASHEES, regardless of race, religion, gender etc ought NOT to be included in White Ribbon Day.
Or do you intend to continue to discriminate against half of the population?
Dec 20th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET – You deliberately miss the point. And, until you answer the questions I posed on several occasions re your attitude to your mother, and your lack of will to seek justice for her re the crimes committed by your father, you don’t have the right to dictate to me. “Until you move beyond your narrow frame of reference, probably nothing will change for the better.” You and others sought to change the subject matter of Nov 25th. The facts are, that I don’t need to cast aspersions on the male population, they act that out for themselves, and sadly, for reasons I can’t understand, women like you join them. The same happens re positive discrimination trying to right the bias against women over years, decades, centuries.
The fact is, that women are killed by people who they have/had an intimate relationship with. The kids die or are subjected to child abuse even hearing violent conversations between their parents/partners etc; that the overwhelming majority of women who are murdered in every state in this country, are killed by their husbands/partners. Over 180,000 women are raped in this country each year; that’s 50 per day. Show me the comparable stats on male incidences of sexual abuse BY WOMEN? You wish for reasons known only to you, to whittle down the impact of WRD. You didn’t even take action against the person who raped your mother, but you obviously believe you have the right to take me on. I’ve never betrayed another woman?
If some men resent one day of the year that focuses on the brutal attacks on women, than, let them be honest enough to say so; rather than bellyache but are content to sit on their bums! Do what women had to do, get off your collective arses, provide the stats/proof, and start a campaign. Women had to take the fight to the legislators, it didn’t just happen. Taking a stand against violence towards women doesn’t detract from the fact, that men are assaulted, but under different circumstances, and usually not at home? (cont)
Dec 21st, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET – ” If you keep inciting these men, it will not improve their impression of females per se.” What’s this, the ‘little girls must be nice’ syndrome? Do you know what? I couldn’t give a fig what the “men” on this site think of me or females in general. By their own actions, they’ve shown what their attitudes to women are; and that has only produced anger, frustration and sadness in me. I’m not interested in doing a LORIKEET – get on side with the ’strength’? I gave that idea up 25 yrs ago!
If ‘men’ were a ‘family’, it wouldn’t take a Rhodes Scholar to realize, that there’s something inately wrong? evil? ingrained? with the male population that causes them to resort to violence in relationships rather than love, care, friendship or even kindness to their partners? Men abuse in every area in larger numbers than women. Sexual abuse, violent assaults, controlling behaviour etc than women. In my lifetime, I can only recall a small number of women who killed kids – they stand out, and are assessed as ‘abnormal’, but people like you feel threatened, when women/men like me/us speak out against this? Police stats etc point to the truth, but instead of some men rejecting this behaviour, they feel hard done by, because their sex is not mentioned at the same time. Resent making any concessions? Want to introduce red herrings, and infer that the stats lie. 5 men in NSW (including priest/s etc)charged with 150 counts of allegedly abusing young boys/men in 2 schools during 70’s -80’s. No women! This is not unique! It’s a very familiar realtiy. How can you keep on ignoring these stats? Same applies with DV. Overwhelming disparity in the numbers. Why? Is it in their psyche or their environment? What’s the cause? Rapes in war- this is now just another ‘weapon’ that is used! Women are being raped & mutilated? How can those men do this?
I didn’t create the statistics. Do the police or ABS lie? DV costs govts and business billions per yr.Why would they lie?
Dec 21st, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
Do the police lie?
Do governments lie?
I think these are very naive questions.
Dec 22nd, 2008
Glen
Naomi,
The only person that appears to be thrashing around on here is you. No one is denying that women suffer badly from DV.
All I am saying is that DV should be seen from a more balanced perspective and not as one gender bashing the other.
Given what you have said – would you have your male partner arrested and convicted of a crime if he hit you?
Then what if out of anger you hit him once and he did the same to you?
Is this really how you see it?
It’s fair enough to say that a crime is a crime and therefore should be dealt with, but would your simplistic approach be appropriate for families and relationships?
Dec 22nd, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
I answered some of your questions in relation to disparity between numbers upthread, and also gave a list of 12+ reasons why DV might be occurring in a relationship. I compiled that list off the top of my head in 5 to 10 minutes.
Maybe you could help us out with more reasons and a few more solutions.
We might add to the list of reasons/causes, the apathetic attitude that community members have in relation to what goes on outside of their own four walls.
Dec 23rd, 2008
Glen
Well guys I want to wish you all the best for the festive season, and let’s hope that given this is the most fragile time for families that are on the verge of breaking up, that DV is reduced and they seek the help they need.
I also want to thank those readers that tried to see the different perspective on WRD and DV.
Merry Christmas Andrew and everyone on here!!
Dec 24th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
GLEN – “The only person that appears to be thrashing around on here is you.” I’m not “thrashing around” as you call it. You misunderstand my anger, frustration as thrashing around. Quite the contrary; I’m the one who’s looking at the overwhelming fact, that the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of DV are men. Those engaging in using red herrings and unsubstansiated utterances are (mainly) men. I’m amazed by the behaviour of many of you. As I’ve said previously, Andrew Bartlett, all the Attorneys General, many other men in the community acknowledge the truth, and have made a commitment to speak out against it. You lot are the ones with the problem, not I or many males out there in the community! This is so frustrating!
Let me ask this question. When the ABS or individual representatives of all police in the country give the stats for stolen cars, do you get on your hobby horse and point out the injustice of only giving stats on stolen cars? Do you get angry when the stats reveal, that the overwhelming number of people stealing cars are male? Do you get angry when the stats reveal, that the overwhelming number of young people dying in car accidents are male? Do you take over the airwaves, blog spots and other places, rearing up in righteous indignation about how the research was carried out, and question the numbers? Do you introduce the number of males killed in other areas to support your claims? Of course not! The proof can be found in many places. Births, deaths and marriages; police and ambulance records; local govt stats etc. The same applies on the relevance of the stats re DV. I find them frightening, but not surprising. Those who feel threatened by these stas probably feel the same about people seeking equality in many areas>
My angry, frustrated responses are born out of the fact, that some people have a grave problem with acknowledging the truth.
Dec 27th, 2008
Glen
Naomi,
If you go back to your post on 18/12 you will see that it was you that coined the term “thrashing around” to describe the way people are posting on this Blog.
Also if you look at my posts on here, please show me where I have not told the truth?
You are correct – the whole truth can be found in many places.
A little while ago I wrote a letter to my local AG about DV and WRD, and in the response they quoted that their stats for DV against women were only based on hospital emergency admissions. Nothing else. Do you think this is to narrow research? Perhaps it justified the means to show that lots of women get beat up by their partners as that has been the sole focus of the DV campaign.
When you say that the majority of DV perpetrators are men – again you are correct, but only due to the definition of DV being physical in nature and not including emotional abuse.
A look at the bigger picture would tell a different story. 400 women v’s 1400 men die per year from DV and DV related abuses through suicide.
As I have shown in previous posts WRD has only come about due to the Office for Women. Now if a Federal Govt agency existed for the needs of both men and women I believe the DV campaign would be different.
Answer these question please:
Do you agree that a solution for DV should involve all parties?
Do you agree that DV perpetrators need help or support like that received by DV victims?
If you cannot agree to these questions then I would say you are probably just another man hating feminist that thrives on thrashing narrow minded views on the internet.
As you will read, you will see that I support WRD but disagree with the way it is run. In particularly I do not agree with the advertising campaigns that demonise men in general with false assumptions.
Also after delving into this area I got onto Childwise and saw that their marketing materials did not portray boys as victims or abuse. I even wrote them and email and they agreed with with me!
Dec 28th, 2008
Iain Hall
Naomi
None of us here who have criticisms of White Ribbon Day in any way deny your much vaunted stats.But as we keep telling you the figures are NOT the whole story. Clearly they are for you. because you want so badly to prove that men are the only evil doers that should be sanctioned.
Frankly as I see it the problem is Domestic Violence Full Bloody Stop, and I abhor and denounce all of it. I don’t think it matters who does what to whom, or which gender has a greater propensity to resort to violence especially as I expect that with the rise of feminism we are beginning to see more women who are willing to be both publicly vulgar and violent which I expect will see the domestic violence stats even out somewhat.
Dec 28th, 2008
LORIKEET
Naomi:
I think your angry, frustrated responses are about your failure to acknowledge anything outside of a narrow perspective, which doesn’t seem to show interest in causation or solution.
I asked you to help us out further with ideas on the above, but no response has been received, other than further browbeating of other posters.
I know a man who says, “Never hit a woman unless she hits you first.”
I don’t agree with this statement, since a lot of men (but not all) are stronger than women.
There is really nothing to be gained by hitting back anyway, because of the likelihood that the physical abuse will escalate, no matter who started it.
These days, quite a lot of women have received martial arts training, and are quite capable of both attacking and defending themselves. This is 2008 (almost 2009). We aren’t living in the days when men could get away with doing nearly anything.
Yes, I acknowledge that the society has more problems with males. How are we going to fix them?
I’m sure it won’t be by fuming and blaming, but through rational discussion.
No one here seems to have “a grave problem with acknowledging the truth”.
No one is questioning numbers, except to acknowledge that a lot of men who are victims of domestic violence probably don’t come forward for fear of being ridiculed or losing face with other males.
Dec 28th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET – “This is 2008 (almost 2009). We aren’t living in the days when men could get away with doing nearly anything.” Really? Why then do only 10% of women who are raped report it to the police? Why are only about the same % or less take it to court? Why are women still attacked in the witness box, with only a few States attending to this? Why are there 50 rapes in this country daily, and probably a gang rape in each state each weekend at least? Probably 99% of victims are women/girls? Sadly, there’s a long way to go!
There is a grave problem with males; perhaps it’s the way they’re being raised? Perhaps it’s some inate ‘problem’ they’re born with? All I’ve maintained, is that the scales are hideously one sided, and when all men take a stand, it will probably lessen markedly! Instead of this, people on this site insist on the ‘but’ system. If you all agreed with Andrew’s initial comments weeks ago, why has there been so much disagreement? When you’ve answered my questions, you can insist on me providing the solutions to these problems. As to martial arts? I think all young people should be taught self defence at school; part of sport or physical development. I wish I had! If men with violence towards women had to think that their victims could defend themselves, it could act as a deterrent. Most men, even when women are larger; are more able to defend themselves – muscle capacity etc.
You all either question the stats and then put forward views accordingly, or deny the stats altogether.They’re out there! Overwhelming against males. That’s a truth! Denying it won’t change it. Could you imagine the impact if a million or even 100,000 men took to the streets in protest in every State and Territory, against other men giving them a bad name via violence? Amazing I suggest!
Men are more violent against other men; more violent towards their loved ones; higher % of male pedophiles?
Dec 29th, 2008
Dolphins
I haven’t seen a source cited here for the stats about males who suicide due to domestic abuse. Are there such surveys, studies, estimates, reports? The non-authoritative site http://www.mensconfraternity.org.au/?page=p8 states that the suicide rate for males aged 39 to 55 in WA in 1998-1999 rose 48% . This raises a couple of issues – any jump of that size in stats in that time frame needs explanation – e.g. has the definition changed? Are stats being collected in a different way, from different sources etc? The page itself was supposedly last updated 3 weeks ago, so one wonders why the stats used are so old. The site then goes on to claim that this rise was due to unfair treatment of men by the Family Court – an opinion that may well be behind the original post by “Iain Hall”.
Nowhere is there any link between the sad suicide stats, if they are true and divorces. (I wonder, by the way, if any of these suicides are the ones where the male takes and kills “his” children, sometimes killing the mother as well. I find difficulty feeling sympathy for those ‘loving dads’.)
Yes, there appears to be a real epidemic of male suicide, and it is something we should be concerned about. People who live in rural areas know the stats on young males who suicide by vehicle .. few of them are in DV situations unless it is in thier birth home, possibly from one or other parent. Many male suicides are indigenous males, often unpartnered males, for other reasons. Many suicides by males may be due to relationship breakdown, but a lot are due to economic problems, stand by for more of those, and mental health issues entirely unrelated to relationship problems, often due to substance abuse and _lack_ of relationships as a consequence.
This took me 5 minutes to research, but nowhere did I find figures showing a correlation between male suicide and DV. How about it, contributors?
Dec 29th, 2008
Glen
Naomi,
One reason why I do not support the WRD and DV against Woman advertising campaigns, is that I believe their negativity is causing more damage and more deaths by further isolating men who are already suffering in silence and trapped in their situation.
Whilst on the other hand, if you look at the phenomenal uptake of Movember in the last 2 years in Australia, you will see a more male friendly and supportive campaign being embraced by women as well as many 1000’s of men.
In comparison I find the WRD campaign embarrassing and ineffective and a product that would only come from male hating feminists who do not have the common of good of all people at heart.
It is good that you are starting to ask questions of why men do what they do. Please keep on asking questions and please try to find some answers.
Dolphins,
Try this reference for a start:
http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/publications/synopses/withdrawn/mh11.pdf
As I have said before DV is more complicated than simply seeing it as a physical assault on a partner.
Also this recent study shows that of the many risk factors that may lead to suicide, relationship issues is ranked the highest risk factor.
http://www.mcsp.org.au/files/user4/Albany_Mens_Resource_Centre.pdf
Happy reading!
Dec 30th, 2008
LORIKEET
Dolphins:
I think a bit of extrapolative thinking might get you at least some of the answers you require. A man might suicide after being ejected from the family home by his wife, probably with the help of drugs and alcohol.
Lots of men are thrown out of their jobs once they hit 40. It’s been happening for a very long time. The society doesn’t value experienced workers, and young people also have far less respect for their elders in the workplace and elsewhere.
It’s not an unusual thing to find highly trained and experienced professional men working in call centres or more menial jobs.
Naomi:
I think women need to be taught to stick up for themselves quite a bit more. If we all did that, and were backed by our brothers, fathers etc in terms of both DV and rape, some people might learn quite a lesson about the acceptability of their behaviour.
My daughter-in-law is 6 feet tall and used to run her own karate school.
In the case of my mother, a person can hardly call in police 2 weeks after the alleged incident and there’s not a single mark on her. Even if someone had called them, she would have told them nothing had happened. If I had picked her up and carried her out of the house (quite difficult since she was bigger than me) she would have protested and come straight back.
You can’t do things like that to other women anyway. You can’t treat them as if they are children. You have to empower them as independent adults, where possible.
A sexual relationship is a fundamental part of a marriage. If you NEVER want to have sex with the other person, why are you still there, driving your adult children nuts with your complaining, and no intention of ever changing anything?
We all offered to help Mum. We tried to get her to leave, even offering her a home. I even found a safe haven for her close to some shops/services, and looked into social security arrangements.
You can take a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.
Dec 30th, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
Dolphins – Yes, I agree with you. I’ve read many articles and listened to people who work in support community based organizations, who believe, by the callers they seek to help, that the reasons for male suicides are many and varied. When there’s long term drought in any State for example, sadly, the suicide rate increases. I haven’t been able to find any documentation that points to just relationship/DV reasons.
GLEN – “Do you agree that DV perpetrators need help or support like that received by DV victims?”
Let me ask you; Do you agree that those who steal cars “need help or support like that received by DV victims?” Or do you believe, that the law should take care of the perpetrators, and it’s up to the them to seek “help or support”? Why take a different stance on DV?IF males who commit violent acts want to change their behaviour, out of their professed love for the victim they’d seek it – those who do are to be encouraged and welcomed, but it’s not the victims’ place to negotiate anger management; in fact, I’d suggest that they could be the worst ones to try due to fear, resentment, anger and maybe even hatred, particularly if their children were involved. I’ve never heard a victim say “there there dear, let’s go see a counsellor”! They’d probably cop it again! Many perps blame them anyway. “You made me do it, because?- you’re useless, hopeless, stupid or ?”
“..their stats for DV against women were only based on hospital emergency admissions.” In that case their stats would be lower than reality as most women don’t present to hospital -The ABS and the National Crime Authority, State govts, refuges, rape crisis centres, midwives and other health and support services (including rape centres at hospitals)have stats re DV. It’s also recognised, that DV costs the economy approx. $8 billion per year.
Dec 31st, 2008
Naomi Cartledge
I wonder if GLEN, IAIN or LORIKEET have either spoken to or read about a woman who’s been abused by their partner/s (apart from your mother LORIKEET?). I suggest not. Have you known a male friend who you suspected of abusing his wife/partner/children?Did you intervene? With all the ‘but’ comments, you overlook an important aspect; it’s not as simple as you portray, and until you take the time to read personal stories etc, they just emphasize the impacts of abuse by taking the ‘but’ side of the issue. If other crimes of violence are considered crimes, why a different stance on DV? That’s been the problem for too long. ‘Behind closed doors, personal business, none of mine, that’s his right, she deserved it, asked for it, she’s lazy’ – blah blah!
The horrific stats re DV aren’t just applicable to Australia. The crimes of violence against women and kids, particularly by partners/husbands etc is a world issue; that’s why the UN sets aside the days from Nov 25-Dec 10 each yr. When war zones etc are included, there’s an undeniable problem with attitudes to women. How people can spend almost 2 months on the ‘but’ bandwagon is quite frankly, amazing and personally, troubling and saddening. Why would a woman approach any of those who are looking for rational ‘reasons’ or ??? is beyond me. In short, they wouldn’t – why take a chance on being rejected by antagonistic people ‘outside’? Your attitudes could have caused many women to shut up, and not have the courage to seek help again – perhaps for years! More years of abuse! I hope none of them have read some posts here! Ring a helpline or go to a refuge!
Dec 31st, 2008
Dolphins
Glen: again, there is a misunderstanding — I don’t think the proponents of WRD are saying that their campaign is against physical violence only. I know from personal experience that it is usually more than that, though that is bad enough. Yes, relationship issues are high among the factors involved in suicide, but those issues may stem from financial difficulties, substance abuse, mental illness, poor interpersonal skills … and these may or may not feed into abuse of/by the partner. It is clear that this is all linked in some cases, and in other cases it isn’t. My last word in this subject is that if non-abusive males feel that their good name is being blackened by a campaign that targets abusive males, then perhaps they need to target the abusive males too. Or, if they have some need for activism, support a campaign against abusive females … show the statistics, show case studies – if the cause is there then organise to get something done about it, but don’t whinge about those who DO have a case and whose cause is being supported. Thanks for the references, by the way, but while valid, they relate to a separate issue (male mental health) and again they are 10 years old, and maybe you need to agitate to get more work done on this.
Lorikeet: My point is that there are people posting here who claim that the stats for DV against men by women are greater, or as significant as those WRD has publicised about male DV on families. They are claiming (in some cases) that male suicide rates are directly linked to females oppressing males, and some of these claimants link the Family Court to the high rates of male suicide. (High rates, by the way, that have existed since the early 20th century, long pre-dating the Family Court.) What they have not done, though, is produce stats or other studies supporting their claims.
Jan 1st, 2009
Glen
Naomi,
Yes reasons for suicide are varied, however if only 2 of the 4 suicides per day were directly linked to emotional abuse from a partner then 700 male deaths per year is still nearly double the female death rate of all DV and suicides. There are also many suicides that are not recorded such as car accidents and the like.
There are not a lot of studies out there looking at male suicide. One reason is that the Office for Women are not interested and therefore do not provide any funds for this. They are generously funded to provided whatever is required for women’s needs. State and Federal Governments are only interested in youth suicide and men are ignored. The second link I gave is a recent study on male suicide in a local rural area that focuses on older men. You will not find too many studies like this anywhere as it was by funded by state/local authorities.
Naomi – I believe that we need to provide support for all people with problems. I do not agree with what the Americans do and just lock people up and throw away the key. The law should protect everybody and provide means for all people to be rehabilitated.
I know or have known friends and colleagues both male and female that have suicided or been murdered due to marriage breakups or abuse within the relationship. I professionally work with children and encounter all types of abuses every week. I see parents in conflict, drug abuse, people that lack appropriate communication skills, children that abuse their parents. I don’t need to read personal stories as I see and hear enough every week. I also do not experience a prevailing gender as the abuser or victim. Everyone suffers!
I am not trying to downplay the example of abuses against women that you emphatically give in your posts. All I am saying is that DV needs to be seen from a bigger picture perspective than the one sided view you have. If done so then I believe we will find the answers we need to deal with it.
Jan 1st, 2009
Glen
Dolphins,
ABS data shows that male suicide in the 15 – 35 age range has increased dramatically in last 30 years and has not remained constant. The second link I gave is not very old.
All the reasons for suicide are linked. You cannot separate each reason, for example depression, and say that it was the sole cause for suicide, unless you want to hide the real reasons.
If you have been in a relationship then you will know that financial decisions can cause a lot of conflict, and also the lack of communication skills, mental illness all which can lead to DV. Substance abuse is usually a result of the above where a person cannot cope with the abuse in their relationship or conflict. All this inevitably leads to depression which can then lead to suicide.
Separation and divorce is like a double edged sword.
First the couple have to deal with the abuse from each other and then they have to survive the legal side.
Family court decisions usually give majority care of kids to the mother. This usually results in the mother receiving most of the assets of the marriage, which then results in the father having to pay the mother child support which stops him from re-establishing his life or having a meaningful relationship with his kids.
From this process I can come up with many reasons why life might not be worth living for the father, and other agendas whether they exist or not.
Please show me some evidence that WRD is about all forms of DV and not just about physical assault?
I think that both men and women should unite to end DV. Making men the sole persons responsible for fixing the problem will not eliminate DV against women.
The claims I and others are making are self evident. There is no real need for intellectual government funded studies to tell us what is obvious in relationships.
You only need to ask family and friends what they think about these issues. Lorikeet did so and got a very strong response in favour of what we are saying.
Jan 1st, 2009
LORIKEET
I think Glen views the situation from a much broader perspective than some.
In regard to Family Court, unfairness can occur on either side. I think it is a far more common experience that the father is able to rebuild his life, while the mother goes backwards.
There has been a fairly recent shift to 50/50 parenting, and a 50/50 division of assets depending on the parents’ circumstances. This has mainly advantaged men, not women or children, with government also sending mothers out to work.
Naomi:
I have never known of any men complainng of abuse by their wives, but I’ve already told you twice why that is. I’m not doing it a third time.
The only women I have known who were abused by their husbands were too co-dependent to act in their own best interests. They just kept coming back for more, instead of drafting up their “Bill of Rights” as to what they would put up with in future.
One of these women had a full-time job. Her husband didn’t go to work, mow the lawn or do anything useful. He just drank, ordered her about, demanded food and also abused their child.
I was only a child myself at the time, and could therefore do nothing. There were other options available the woman could have taken.
As a child, I remember much worse domestic violence going on in at least 2 homes in our street.
Jan 2nd, 2009
Dolphins
Glen – according to the White Ribbon Day website http://www.whiteribbonday.org.au/About-WRD-34.aspx “The White Ribbon Foundation of Australia aims to eliminate violence against women by promoting culture-change around the issue. The major strategies to achieve this are a national media campaign as well as education & male leadership programmes aimed at men and boys around Australia. ” It was orginally a reaction in Canada after a man targetted 14 women and I gather killed them, simply because they were women. I’m sure you deplore this kind of action. An example from a police PR statement in the ACT : “”On average, ACT Policing officers attend around 3600 domestic violence matters per year, 92% of which are committed by male offenders. Nationally, one in three women report being subjected to violence at the hands of a male at some point in their lives.” http://www.afp.gov.au/media_releases/act/2008/police_support_white_ribbon_day
If you have a problem with the campaign, not aimed at blaming every male, but aimed at enlisting them in showing support for the non-use of violence against women, then as has been said, gather support for your own cause and marshall stats etc to get it recognised.
Perhaps my history as a victim and as a worker in this area makes me extrapolate into the statements above a broader definition of “violence” that you want to see there.
Perhaps you are right, and all the people saying that women suffer disproportionately from violence directed against them by that sub-group of men who commit such acts are wrong. Please let us know what constructive actions you want taken and are willing to help organise .. rather than narking about some cause you don’t approve of?
Jan 3rd, 2009
LORIKEET
I have given further thought to this matter, and almost without exception, any DV cases I have ever known of had alcohol involved. I can only think of a couple of cases involving drugs, or drugs and alcohol combined.
So I think a large part of the solution must lie with the government doing something more about the consumption of alcohol.
If there was better access to mental health services, the situation might be further improved.
So that’s 2 important isssues that have been inadequately addressed by both State and Federal governments.
Jan 3rd, 2009
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET “I have given further thought to this matter, and almost without exception, any DV cases I have ever known of had alcohol involved. I can only think of a couple of cases involving drugs, or drugs and alcohol combined.” Christine Nixon who is Victoria’s Police Commissioner in an article in the Bulletin a few years ago (written by Deborah Light, a journalist, and a victim of a violent father) said, that she thought some men drink in order to commit violence against their wives/children, rather than the way this aspect is treated by many. I think she has a point that is certainly worth thinking about. However, you’re still making excuses for their behaviour.
The other important aspect in violence against women by men, is that the men aren’t usually violent against anyone else. Why is that? Probably because as cowards, they wouldn’t be able to cope with someone who was on an equal footing. They don’t commit violence against their colleagues, mates or siblings or strangers, just their wives/partners, mothers of their children; they come from all walks of life, and so do their victims. And you and Glen etc have spent weeks making breaks for them. You can’t help yourself! You blame the women, other wholly or partially, but you probably don’t blame victims of house or car theft, bank robberies etc! The type of men who abuse women need to have the power; it’s the power that prompts the behaviour; they’re incapable of adult discussion re issues, and believe that their lives, needs, wants are paramount. It’s amazing how a man who insists that he loves his wife/partner can whack her across the head and then go and answer the phone or the door as though everything is fine. What sort of a person can do that, do you think? One sick bastard that’s who! They don’t need relationship counselling, they’ve past that point! They don’t deserve to have a relationship or their kids either! And their punching ‘bags’ shouldn’t have to prop them up by being concerned about them
Jan 3rd, 2009
Naomi Cartledge
LORIKEET, GLEN and IAIN – If you really want an insight into the types of abusers and the affects, read Journey by Danielle Steel (yes, a novel)Just a small grab;
“..a woman who has seen domestic violence at home as a child, say with a physically abusive father, may think that a man who never beats her phsically is a great guy, but he may be ten times more abusive than her father, much subtler and far more dangerous.He can control her, isolate her, threaten her, terrorize her, insult her,belittle her,demean her, disrespect her, withold affection or money from her. Abandon her or threaten to take away her children,but she won’t have a mark on her,and he tells her she’s one lucky woman, and what is worse she believes it. And you’ll never be able to put him in jail, because when you nail the bastard for what he did to her, he’ll tell you that she’s crazy, stupid, dishonest, psychotic and lying to you about him.”
“..sometimes it happens to beautiful, smart women that you can’t believe would fall for it. Sometimes they’re the easiest targets.Women who are more streetwise are less apt to buy the bullshit.They’re the ones who get the shit kicked out of them. The others are tortured more subtly.”
Go to the library or buy it at Kmart or somewhere. It’s worth reading to get an insight into the grooming, the psychological mind games, and the sheer evil of some, too many men! The author must have 1st or 2nd? hand knowledge! When self esteem, self confidence is removed, and fear is a strong deterrent; it’s not hard to understand how it happens. Sadly, it’s often AFTER the woman has left that the real clarity arives, and understandably anger follows – in place of shame! But that journey is not pleasant – necessary, vital even, but not pleasant! What then? Go to the police? And try to prove what exactly?
Jan 3rd, 2009
LORIKEET
Naomi:
Thank you for showing everyone what a dreadful attitude you have towards men. I wouldn’t waste my time reading the book you suggest, because all it appears to do is cast men and women into aggressor/victim (adult/child) rolescenario.
I don’t think it is normal for anyone to take such ridiculous ideas away from any kind of abusive home life. We all have reality checks outside of our own homes, don’t we?
Also to suggest that a man deliberately drinks in order to hurt his wife is the craziest idea I’ve ever heard.
Some people (men and women) have addictive personalities which lead them to alcoholism, drug abuse, smoking, gambling etc. Some are addicted to a person or activity. Some are unhappy in their relationships.
I think the best thing to do is to find out what is wrong, and do something about it before the problem escalates.
I will remind you again that I am a trained exit counsellor, and I am well aware that some manifestations of destructive cultism can occur between a husband and wife in the home. The control freak could be either the man or the woman.
When I was a child, the husband and wife living across the street both got drunk and then bashed one another. I’ve already told you of another couple who threw saucepans of boiling water and hot food over one another, and also broke chairs over each other’s heads.
Also, your previous contention that a woman with martial arts training wouldn’t have sufficient strength to hurt a man is partly fallacial. Success at martial arts is largely based on skill and technique.
The women you are discussing are the ones who are extremely co-dependent. Their men have probably had no respect for them, because they didn’t draw a boundary line early in the piece.
Sometimes when counsellors/psychologists work only with a select group of people, they lose objective insight into the society as a whole. I suspect that is what has happened to you.
I am not condoning domestic violence.
Jan 4th, 2009
Iain Hall
Naomi
I have seen more than my share of Danielle Steele’s fiction and the one thing that is consistent about all of it is that it is rather divorced from reality.
Now while I don’t doubt that some men do try to emotionally manipulate their partners when it comes to that “art” women, as a gender are by far the superior masters of that skill. Anyone who has been in a long relationship will acknowledge that there has to be an ongoing negotiation and each party will constantly try to get their own personal agenda to the forefront. It could be conflict over the trivial (like the positioning of the toilet seat) or it could be about serious matters like paying the rent rather than booze or drugs but it is always important HOW these matters are negotiated. Domestic violence is the result of a failure of civility in such negotiations.
I don’t know how much practical first hand experience you have of relationships but I suggest investigate some that have endured for a long time and you will see that the common factor is almost always a willingness to compromise by both parties as much as it is a shared goal fro the relationship. I suppose what I am suggesting is that instead of focusing your attention on all that is wrong in relationships that fail that you should look and the ones that work and see it there is a lesson there that can help those that fall into dysfunction and violence.
Jan 4th, 2009
Andrew Bartlett
Thanks to everyone for their contributions on this post. At the risk of ebing accused of censorship, I might close off comments now. I believe this is a very important topic, but it seems to me that people are basically making the same arguments over and over without really hearing each other – and two months is a good enough length of time for people to give their views.
Seeing Iain started it off, it’s probably also apt that he finishes it off too (although I must say that, 164 comments after the first, I still haven’t seen any explanation of why White Ribbon Day could be described as “misandry” (or man-hating), given that it is men (including me) who are the ones who publicly promote and support it.)
Jan 5th, 2009