Every Monday morning during my radio show on community radio 4ZzZ FM, I chat with Peter Black, a constitutional lawyer, follower of social and political issues and obsessive user of social media. I don’t normally put links to those chats on this blog, but given that our talk this morning was all about the federal election, I thought it was worth putting a link to it on this occasion.
You can have a listen to it by clicking on this link.
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Given I am now running as a Greens candidate, I suppose it is no surprise that I am indicating my agreement with a comment that Bob Brown made today. But I would also say that it isn’t any secret that I haven’t agreed with every public comment that Bob has made, and I would agree with the following comment about the schoolyard level nonsense regarding another possible leaders debate even if it had been made by Steve Fielding:
“What we’re seeing now between the two leaders is an absolute farce and people everywhere are rolling their eyes at Tony Abbott and Julia Gillard not having the maturity to get together to agree to the series of debates which would have enlightened the electorate,“
It is a joke and a sad reflection on the optic and image driven nature of political media coverage in Australia. A couple of weeks ago, there was a three way debate at the National Press Club on important ICT issues such as internet filtering, broadband and wider communications policy. More... ()
A couple of years ago I wrote a blog post about mountaintop mining in the USA. All mining has some impact, but the sheer destructiveness of this type of mining is astonishing – and that’s before you take into account the greenhouse impact of the coal.
This article in the New York Times details the potential impact of a similar project in West Virginia. The significance of this proposal is that there is the possibility it may be stopped, or seriously curtailed, by the Obama administration, which would be a signal of a positive shift on this issue.
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Following are links to a couple of recent radio interviews I’ve done, plus an online one
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As I noted in my previous post, this week’s Newspoll saw the Greens register 16% support – the highest that party has ever achieved, comparable to the Democrats best Newspoll result of 17% back in 1990. History suggests it is unlikely that this peak will be maintained right through to election day (or even the next Newspoll) but it is part of a continuing trend of solid Greens results. I’ve written a piece expanding on this, and how the party might approach the challenges ahead, at The Drum/Unleashed on the ABC’s site – which you can read by clicking on this link.
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Contention over Queensland’s Wild Rivers legislation has been bubbling along for quite a while now. Unfortunately, as with many issues which become polarised, each “side” is focused on defending their position, which has meant that some important underlying issues are not getting the attention they deserve.
I’ve just had a piece on this topic published at The Drum on the ABC’s website. It’s fairly long, so they published it in two parts – the first part is at this link and the second part is at this one. I should emphasise that the article reflects my personal views, and is not a formal view of the Greens, nor of ANTaR Queensland, who I am also involved with.
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Hip hop fans in Brisbane might be interested in tuning in to my radio show on 4ZZZ FM this Monday morning around 7:30am. I’ll be talking with the Gold Coast based duo Choose Mics, who are launching their debut full length album Beggars Can’t Be Choosers at the Step Inn in the Valley this coming Friday night as part of what will be a big night for fans of hip-hop/rap/urban sounds, with Brisbane’s The Optimen also launching their second album “The Out of Money Experience” as part of the same event.
Even though there is a steady stream of musical offerings in Brisbane, a double album launch of this magnitude doesn’t come along every day of the week, so I’ll dedicate a half hour or so to exploring not just the words and sounds of Choose Mics, but getting a broader overview from them of the hip hop related scenes locally and nationally.
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66 Comments, Comment or Ping
Lisa
Thanks for highlighting. I guess it’s an obvious point but still well worth making.
Aug 1st, 2006
Aron
It’s nice to hear some good news.
Aug 1st, 2006
Kaye Bernard
The Howard Government has irresponsibley, wasted over a half a million dollars in just 6 months on the detention of one man, the 43rd West papuan (David Wanggai) who recieved protection from Australia today, when he was determined a refugee.
The PM is famous for his 2003 quote that he ‘would go to any expense to stop boatpeople seeking aslyum in mainland Australia’ however the real fiscal cost is weighing heavily at a time when that policy is clearly unnecessary.
In January 2006 when David Wanggai arrived by canoe seeking asylum on mainland Australia, the Howard Goverment pigheadledly adhered to the obsolete offshore detention policy and chose to send this group to the most expensive place in Australia for processing, Christmas Island.
The unnecessary daily cost per detainee for offshore detention on Christmas Island made by the Howard Government decision wasted an obscene $2985.00 per day.
http://parlinfoweb.aph.gov.au/piweb/view_document.aspx?id=100732&table=ESTIMATE
The Howard Govenment decision to hold asylum seekers offshore looks fiscally irresponsible when contrasted with the less expensive cost for mainland detention at say Villawood at $190 per day per detainee (or community accomodation, pending health and security clearances during processing)
Aug 1st, 2006
dodgyville
That’s six months of his life he’ll never get back. Could’ve saved a lot of money and effort if they’d just extended protection to the 43rd person on their list of 43 people.
PS welcome back
Aug 1st, 2006
halal Kind Meats
Kaye
Did you say he was granted approval today?
Ok thats taken six months and a lot of our money.
I can only assume that he is happy now to live here.
Of course the counter arguments would be that the Government have checked him out properly which is what the public expect.
From the other corner the argument would have to be the high cost to the tax payers.
Its very hard to find the right balance .
Heres wishing him luck in Australia.
Aug 1st, 2006
ken
I’d steer clear of trying to argue the fiscal grounsd and stick to the moral or humane.
The mechanism of reaaching the average cost per day per detainee by simply dividing total cotst by numbers of detainees wouldnt past muster at year 8 economics let alone on any proper financial analysis.
While undoubtedbly the Island option would be more expensive than the metro one, the margianl costs is what really needs to be addressed – many of the costs are fixed irrespective if there’s a detainee there or not.
Aug 2nd, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
Ken Kaye is quoting the government’s own costs And they say it is $12 million a year to keep two refugees illegally locked up on Nauru.
Port Augusta housing is over $2,600 per day per person.
Yet not one of them has committed a crime before they are locked up.
Using all DIMA figures over the past few years we find this.
1. Australasian correctional management – $580 million from 1998-2003, which doesn’t include building costs of some $150 million.
2. Including the use of the navy, army and airforce, Pacific island bribes and all associated costs the Pacific lunacy was over $1 billion – just to keep out a few hundred people for a year or two – nearly 800 are now here anyway as they were always refugees.
3. $300 million since 2003 for the new prison firm.
4 . $170 million for International organisation of Migration since 2000.
5. $370 million a year catching people who overstay their visas or breach their student visas – something they are never charged for in any criminal sense. Some students from overseas have been locked up for 2 years or more going insane just for working an hour a week longer than allowed.
The costs are all DIMA figures.
As for the humanity of it – there is none.
Aug 3rd, 2006
wendy lewthwaite
Ken
Thats an interesting comment. Do you have any figures?
So not all those costs were to just look this one bloke.
When you consider the amount of time Australian people wait in goal for their case to be heard I cant see six moths being a bad effort for someone without papers.
Is the man himself complaining about this six months wait, does anybody know?
I mean if you have no papers or proof of your story we have to check it out.
Someone said thats six months of his life he will never get back.
OK but he was housed and fed and now he has Australia with its welfare and free houses and medical.
What would be good is if someone like insight invited him to tell us his story.
Then we could have more details and perhaps a better understanding.
Its also important to remember that traceing people and getting paper work from overseas takes time.
I just dont see where the Australian government have done the wrong thing sorry.
After all their first job is to check everybody arriving without papers to protect the Australian people.
Cant you just imagine the public if they let people walk straight in with no checks and some turned out to be suicide bomers or whatever.
The public would go crazy.
Aug 3rd, 2006
ken
Yes Marilyn thats right they aer DIMIa figures, an organisaiotn you obviuosdly have great trust in when it suits, – but if you actually read and try and understand the transcript you will see that even Senator Ludwig got the point about the relationship between the fixed costs and the number of detainnees and why the variations occur.
The discussion is not about the other points you rasie valid as they may or may not been.
Try to follow the aergument if possible.
Aug 3rd, 2006
Donna
‘now he has Australia with its welfare and free houses and medical. ‘
I don’t think that’s how many Australians, including refugees, experience Australia.
Aug 3rd, 2006
Andrew Bartlett
In response to comment #8 – there is no situation where asylum seekers “walk straight in without checks” and nobody is advocating that this should happen.
There was no dispute about the identiy of this person or the details of his situation – nothing to do with identity, checking out his story or even disputing that he would be in serious danger if he went back to Indonesia.
The government simply tried to refuse him a visa on the spurious basis that he may have been eligible to temporarily reside in Japan and kept him isolated and in detention for over six months as a consequence.
Aug 3rd, 2006
Deborah
Wendy Lewthwaite, “OK but he was housed and fed and now he has Australia with its welfare and free houses and medical.”
…and so are prisoners, people who have actually committed a crime, this man has done nothing wrong except try to seek sanctuary in Australia. He has a legal right to do so under the Refugee Convention and we as a signatory nation have a duty of non-refoulement or non-forcible return if there is fear of persecution.
I don’t know where you get free houses and medical, I’d like access to that too! We pay for it all with our taxes and up front payments, just as this man will have to – if he’s allowed to work or get a medicare card. Asylum seekers want a safe refuge not a free handout.
It is us, the taxpayers, who are paying for that very expensive incarceration – I’d rather see my money go toward public health, education and decent research, training and infrastructure.
Locking up, and picking on, powerless and defenceless people who have already had a miserable life, is not the way to go.
… and people being scared shitless about terrorists and suicide bombers around every corner are just plain stupid, how many of these events have happened in Australia? You don’t honestly think that detaining a few asylum seekers will stop a terrorist attack do you?
Aug 4th, 2006
red crab
question
what are refugees acctualy given in the way of housing ,medical,education, transportation and financial assistance to get them started in australia after they are accepted.
if some one could answer this i think that it would either prove or squash any roumors that are spread around.
Aug 4th, 2006
ken
That dog wont run Red – I dont think they get much of a free ride – the good ladies will know in more detail
Aug 4th, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
People on TPV’s which is all he will have are granted 89% of the dole, no housing is supplied after about three days in a hostel, English and education is not provided for anyone over 18, medicare is allowed, – that’s it. The full range of services for people on a TPV. No travel, no family reunion for at least 3 years but in reality up to 11 years for some, no travel out of Australia with the right of return. Months or years in prison without trial or charge.
People on a PPV who have only done one thing differently – they came on a plane – have full welfare, housing, education for free, 6 months English, family reunion rights, travel documents and permanent residence without ever again having to prove they are refugees.
There is a case waiting for a result by the High Court to see if these distinctions and time limits are legal.
Andrew people who fly here with a visa and then claim asylum most certainly do just walk in. Even criminals who have been with Ariel Sharon committing massacres in the Shatila and Sabra refugees camps in Israel’s last adventure in Lebanon just walk in and live in the community.
The only way the child refugees I know got a decent education and English lessons is because the state governments decided it was barbaric not to teach these kids who did nothing wrong, and the Catholic education system took in 100’s of the Afghan kids.
The Anglicans took in numbers of the Iranians and Iraqis. Otherwise they were dumped in the streets like rats with almost nothing and left to fend for themselves.
Anyone else want a word about the stupid statements of welfare for refugees being too generous?
Article 31 of the refugee convention states that people should not be punished for entering the host nation without papers, indeed it was recognised by the authors of the convention that papers could not be obtained, or because of how they arrived.
There is something truly deranged about spending billions locking up Afghan refugees , for example, because they came on boats without documents. it is now well known that the Afghans without documents got status years before those who had papers.
Aug 4th, 2006
red crab
thank you marilyn .
it would seam that the roumors are tru then.
Aug 5th, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
Huh, what rumours are those red? That refugees get full welfare rights? Yep they do but not if they can’t get legal travel documents and are forced to catch a boat.
How on earth would you expect us to treat refugees when we bring them here? Dump them in the streets to starve or care for them bearing in mind most of them have been tortured and abused.
This debate is an absurdity – David Waingaii was a refugee when he arrived in Cape York, which is on the Australian mainland.
At the time we had no law that said anyone who landed in Australia could be taken out of Australia for the claims to be examined.
We still don’t so we are breaking our own laws again.
Red, you have just seen how refugee flows start in the Lebanon.
The people had no warning, no time to get papers and were given two choices by the Israeli government – run without anything and we will bomb your car or stay and we will bomb your house.
This is the same government that used Lebanese Phalangist christian members of the SLA to murder Palestinian men, women and children refugees in the Shatila and Sabra refugee camps. Over 200 of those murderers were allowed special entry to Australia by Philip Ruddock and many have protection status in Israel yet we lock up innocent little kids and genuine refugees like David.
With the banner flying saying they were West Papuans escaping the same murderers who killed 183,000 East Timorese we can hardly say we didn’t know who they were can we?
Aug 5th, 2006
wendy lewthwaite
M
Of course they dont get welfare if they are not approved.
Also you have misinformed Ken. there are plenty of migrant centers supplier english legal and many many other services.
I have a friend on the Gold oast who runs one center and another in Sydney.
Ken I will get a list of free services provided to migrants which is funded by the public and post it for you.
Aug 5th, 2006
Andrew Bartlett
how does migrant centres supplying English classes constitute a “free ride”?!
Yet even that assistance is denied to these refugees, as Marilyn said – despite the fact this clearly works against our own self-interest, let alone that of the refugee and their family.
Asylum seeker refugees are not migrants who chose to settle here from somewhere else, they are people who had to flee genuine persecution and seek security and safety – yet they get even less resettlement assistance.
If anyone can suggest why it is not in Australia’s interest to assist migrants or refugees to settle here, please say so. If not, please stop running the furphy that helping them settle is some sort of ‘free ride’. Every other Australian resident gets wide ranging government support in a whole host of areas, why shouldn’t migrants and refugees?
Aug 5th, 2006
Donna
Wendy
What M has posted in relation to ESL lessons and education is true. In fact, I don’t think it’s even one year for students under 18.
You are confusing immigrants with refugees.
Marilyn
Cath Ed have also taken many African refugees under their wings as well.
Aug 5th, 2006
People Against Live Exports
Donna
Yes I was thinking of migrants.[ Thank you]
Still they do end up as migrants eventually dont they.
So why cant the red cross or someone teach them some English?
Is it a sercurity thing?
Andrew a furfy is to lie.
I have always told it like it is.
Some have trouble with that.
For your information I have many migrants who are good friends.
I just think we should put our own first.
As I have been invited to put up a counter argument regarding migrants I shall.
Jobs , health, and things like keeping bibles in hospital come to mind.
Water disease.
The National Party and the Howard Government have flooded us with cheap imports.
We have so few working to carry so many that sooner or later it will catch up.
We import more food than most seem to realise.
We export our food in its most vaulable form.
Other countries have been desroyed by sanctions so those who think it cant happen he should think again.
Very little is left that is Australian owned.
I do however get upset that aboriginal people seem to come after them with many of the public.
That does not seem right somehow.
As for the guy who came in at the 43rd possibly that was the problem.
There was so much trouble for the Government re the other 42 maybe they had to weigh the situation up .
Unless you were privy to that information it would be hard for anyone to comment I guess.
Aug 5th, 2006
Deborah
Sounds like a few people would like to bring back the White Australia Policy.
Asylum Seekers, Refugees and even migrants, are damned if they do and damned if they don’t by some. You want them to speak the English language, criticise them if they don’t learn it – yet resent the very means that they may have available to do so! (doesn’t sound like we assist them much anyway, thanks Marilyn).
No-one gets rich off our welfare system, not even the so called “dole bludgers” and single mothers that are attacked ad nauseum .
I wish the venom could be directed at the recipients of corporate and farmer’s welfare, family trusts, subsidies, and tax cuts for a change – now those people really know how get wealthy by milking the “system”!
Aug 5th, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
I was at a party tonight with Afghan and Iranian refugees and their Australian friends. Some of the Iranian men did the cooking and all the serving, cleaning and washing up. One man of the group has one of the most tragic cases I know, yet he is a beautiful and dignified human being.
He is a 40 year old, intelligent and educated who was tortured and persecuted in Iran so he came to Australia for help. He was locked in Woomera, became suicidal and so escaped. He was locked in prison for 6 months without charge or trial – all others who escaped were eventually handed out a $100 good behaviour bond snd no conviction – and he married an Australian women.
Eventually he was told that if he went back to Iran he could come back on spouse visa. So he went and his wife went with him before coming back after 6 months. He was tortured for 40 days so he escaped to Turkey where he was locked up and tortured again before he finally got refugee status from the UNHCR.
He came back to Australia once last year but was so mentally ill that he went back to Turkey after a few months. Too many bad memories and too much mental damage done to this truly beautiful human soul.
Two weeks ago he came home again and I finally met him after knowing his wife and her anguish for all these years. He is shot to bits but puts on a brave face. There is no reason for this as the man was a refugee from the moment he arrived – no-one knows if he will ever recover.
Another woman was locked up with para-typhoid that she caught in an Indonesia prison after Australian cops turned her in. She and her husband had been robbed and beaten twice in Indonesia before finally getting here in one piece. They were thrown into Woomera and for 4 months pleaded to talk to some one about making a claim for help. Trouble is she was pregnant by then, sick, freezing to death and no-one heard their 42 pleas for help.
Finally a lawyer found them and they were released in a few weeks, just three weeks before her 5 lb sick baby was born. Did we need to do this to her? I don’t think so and she certainly had no medical care in Woomera.
Others spent 5 or 6 years in detention before Australia “discovered” they were refugees. Why? They were refugees when they left not when they got here.
No English lessons, no TAFE unless they work three jobs to pay the fees, no housing, no nothing. Yet they have this amazing spirit of survival that warms everyone who is around them.
Australia desperately needs an open truth and reconciliation program with these refugees we damaged so badly.
Another little girl was at the party – she is about 6 and was in a house with three other families and saw the mums slash their own wrists in despair over a three year period of her young life. All women are now permanent residents of Australia. Did we need to lock them and their children up to suffer all this trauma? Should this little girl have to have seen the brutality of guards then locking the suicidal women in isolation cells, stripped of all their clothes and sometimes handcuffed?
Or thrown to the ground and sat on by three guards? Or told to kneel before the guards?
How about it Andrew? Let’s release that disc to the public.
Aug 6th, 2006
People Against Live Exports
Deborah.
I totally Agree with you re post 22.
Well said. Good for you.
I do think however we need to put aboriginal people as number one and No I dont think we should have a white Australia policy BUT we must preserve our own race goes without saying.
Ausies are beautiful people and every country needs to keep its own race going as the number one .
Donna. I have replied at length to you but it still awaits moderation.
I replied To Andrew as well which is in the same post.
Yes you are correct I was thinking migrants.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Aug 6th, 2006
People Against Live Exports
M;
You do seem to be busy with many parties and your efforts.
Are parties a weekly thing?
You seem to attend lots of parties with these people.
Are these P M parties?
I hosted a PM party here once.
They were all passing the medi care card around and looking at it.
They were very excited.
The guy Ammitt who got his PM on that ocashion stayed with us for two years doing his IT teck and Job.
As soon as he got his PM he went back to India and his family to become engaged to a bride of their choice.
Then he came back to work and was to return to marry and bring his new bride to Australia.
As you would know M this is pretty much the standard practise.
They are so truely grateful and happy to receive free health its wonderful to see.
Australian people dont know how lucky they are .
Aug 6th, 2006
red
well i had to ask the question .
i dont begrudge anyone anything all i wanted to know is EXACTLY what they are given in the way of help.
just the facts.
i do the washing up in our home to its no big deal.
have to ask this to marilyn
the man who came to australia for help
why did he go back to what he escaped from as soon as he married an australian.
seems a bit sus to me.
Aug 6th, 2006
Kaye Bernard
The Immigration Dept Fact sheet 62 sets out assistance provided http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/62assistance.htm
however it has been my experience with asylum seekers who in the main have been boatpeople, that they do their best to overcome their detention experience and have an astoudingly high work ethic with minimal reliance on welfare benefits they are entitled to. These people often express the deepest gratitude, primarily for their physical protection that Australia has afforded them.
PALE when you say, “…every country needs to keep its own race going as the number one” I am left wondering how you define that race?
Is this undefined race built on the notion of our colonial past?
If I reflect on my own families hybdrid make up there are countless clashes if events over time are taken into account. By that I mean there is in my family the input of Italian heritage, which by today’s standards is quite trendy however at the time my father in law was growing up in Australia he and his family narrowly missed internment during WWII through a name change.
It has been 30 years since Australia participated in the resettlement of the Vietnamese as a result of the push factors associated with war, and through that period there has been peaks and troughs in acceptance by our country.
It is no suprise to me that Australia has celebrated 2 Vietnamese boatpeople with young Australian of the year awards for their contribution to this society.
I get invited to a number of Vietnamese community events and it is quite interesting to see politicians of all persuasions (and Immigration Department officials) tripping over themselves and lining up for photo’s alongside these boatpeople while at the same time they deamonise the most recent refugees who too have taken to boats for their lives.
It does concern me that the ‘fear of the other’, has been massaged frantically for political purposes at an increasing rate over our recent history.
This leads us to a situation where Australia would close the lid so firmly, (with the prosposed Bill to banish all boatpeople set to be debated this Tuesday) on those in desperate need who have so much to offer us.
Aug 6th, 2006
Deborah
PALE, thanks, I do agree that Aboriginal people should be number 1 on the list, just to re-dress the imbalance that exists for them in the way of health, education and opportunity in life.
I don’t agree though, for any Aussie as master race theory, that is a similar aim of the ultra right, white supremacists.
The predominantly white, Australian is already the prevailing race by numbers and I don’t think there is any danger of it being swamped by other cultures/religions/colours, despite the fearmongering by certain wedge politicians and prejudiced Australians.
Aug 6th, 2006
Donna
‘…BUT we must preserve our own race goes without saying….Ausies are beautiful people and every country needs to keep its own race going as the number one.’
When I read your comments Wendy, I wonder how such an ‘ugly Australian’ was produced.
Aug 6th, 2006
Donna
Kaye
Just thought I’d add to your comments on the Vietnamese refugees of the 60s & 70s.
My sister-in-law is a Vietnamese refugee. Thirty years later she is a highly-successful business woman, employing a number of staff at both her offices in the Valley and on Brisbane’s south side.
She overcame being a refugee, then a dastardly single mother of three boys, to be a highly-successful business owner with property assets throughout south east Qld. She married my brother in recent years. We love her to bits, and she’s a good cook.
The three boys have done well, so she’s gone on to produce three productive Australians.
Maybe Wendy’s family could do with a good injection of Vietnamese genes to overcome the ‘ugly Australian’ syndrome.
Aug 6th, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
Gee he went home because his mother was dying, spent 40 days being tortured in a Turkish prison and finally the UN said he was a refugee all along.
Refugees are allowed to leave the bloody country you know, they are not our prisoners.
Wendy, stop with the white Australia already, we were never a white Australia.
As for the parties – 2 for this whole year. Wow, what a bad girl I am.
Red, I fail to see why it is you pick up on the smallest thing to criticise. The man is a basket case after years in prison here just because he told the truth and our stupid government didn’t believe him.
On another note about the Afghans.
Four families of Afghans with a total of 19 children came at different times.
One flew and he spent the longest in detention due to a mistaken ID, he was deemed wrongly to be a war criminal and so stayed locked up for 6 years when he should never have been locked up at all while his whole family became citizens.
Family two – family with 5 children came in January 2001, deemed to be Pakistani but realised mistake in June 2002. Then deemed not to be refugees because the Taliban had been kicked out. Went to full federal court – refugees after all and released after 3.5 years.
Family three – cousins of the above family. Dad was deemed an Afghan and cleared by ASIO in June 2000, released and then his wife came. She was deemed to be an Afghan as were her children in March 2001 but were not released. They spent 4 years in detention simply because DIMA couldn’t be bothered correcting their mistakes. Were the only Afghan family ever deported yet the first cousins from the same district are still here.
Fourth family – an Uzbek Mujihadeen with 6 young kids – the wife and kids were released and are permanent residents. All the way to the High Court he was deemed to be a war criminal who had been involved in massacres and gross human rights violations. After 4 years of DIMA trying to deport him the Ombudsman deemed that he should be granted a visa.
That is how incompetent the department were with just these four families and I know that many other families were treated just as shockingly.
At this party all of us were struck by how lucky we are to have these lovely christian and muslim Iranians and Afghans to live among us.
Some just don’t have a clue what they are missing.
Aug 6th, 2006
People Against Live Exports
Donna
I simply meant we must preserve our own culture.
I was refering to bibles in hopitals the lords prayer and kids learning advanced Australia Fair.
There is no need to be so personally rude Donna just because you have taken my comments out of meaning.
As a matter of fact I am surprsed Andrew posted it?
Either way try to express yourself without attacking people.
It does nothing for your cause.
Aug 6th, 2006
Deborah
Bibles in hospitals mean nothing, if people so badly want to read the bible, they should bring their own.
What relevance does the lord’s prayer have? I, for one, would be offended if that was mandatory anywhere. No-one stops the religious from having their prayers, bibles etc now – why do they feel a need to make it compulsory for the entire Australian population?.
I would not want to see this country going the same nationalistic route as the US. Nationalism and extreme patriotism just breed ignorance, bigotry and government sponsored propaganda.
Aug 6th, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
Here is a newsflash Wendy – the hospitals supply bibles to anyone who asks, they provide chaplains of all varieties whether you want them or not and they have never, ever banned bibles.
Who cares anyway? If you are tied to a bed with tubes and pipes for 5 days half dead who gives a stuff about a bible?
As for the lord\’s prayer – again so what does it mean? Only 18% of the countries population are practising christians anyway. If they want to read it or have a bible they are allowed to.
No muslim, buddhist, hindu or any other religion has ever demanded that christian paraphernalia be taken from any room anywhere in Australia.
Aug 7th, 2006
red
marilyn i pic up on the small things because i read everything twice second time is between the lines.
thats where the truth is its in the detail!!
the man who went back to see his dying mother must have been on an australian passport.
and he was detained again?
Aug 7th, 2006
red
thanks kaye for the site to look at.
it would seen to me that a person who is on a tpv actually gets more financial assistance than someone that has worked for 30yrs and paid full tax who finds themselves on the scrap heap
because someone from overseas dos the job for less money .
Aug 7th, 2006
ken
Thats a good poinmt Red – although presumably being on some sort of PV also allows you to leave the country and return.
While I suppose the pull of the dying mother is very strong – it does seem a bit odd to flee somewhere becasue of persubcation, torture and associated distress and then trot back agian? But as Grahama has pointed out elsewhere – not being in the war doesn’t enable one to comment so we’ll have to accept the truth of the case as portrayed.
Aug 7th, 2006
Kaye Bernard
Red and Ken Note that marilyn was referring to a refugee from Iran who travelled to a third country (Turkey) to visit his mother.
Aug 7th, 2006
Deborah
Red, isn’t it the rorting of the 457 visa (Skilled Migrant Visa Program) by unscrupulous employers that causes the problem you describe?
Aug 7th, 2006
ken
Yes Kaye – I did note that – but it seems this poor chap is tortured and locked up everywhere he goes – even here. Thank god for the UNHRC I suppose.
Aug 7th, 2006
red crab
yes deborah it is and that is a real problem.
my comment is about perseption .
heres a question , can a person get a tpv then get strait on a plane go back where they started then re enter australia when and how they please .
il just have to look it up iv also looked up and worked out just how mutch money someone on a tpv got in 2005 and its better than unemployment benifits.
Aug 7th, 2006
Andrew Bartlett
In any case, your assesment is incorrect Red Crab – TPV holders are eligible for Special Benefit, which has a base payment level the same as unemployment benefits (Newstart), but with a much harsher income test (100% dollar for dollar withdrawal) if they get any work.
Also, TPV holders cannot just leave the country and then come back in. They have no automatic right of re-entry, and would usually not be allowed back in without Ministerial approval. (although I can’t see any valid reason why they shouldn’t have this right.)
I can’t see why anyone who is recognised as a refugee should then have life made any more difficult for them – it’s in our own interests, let alone their’s, to assist them to adjust and settle as quickly and fully as possible, not to keep putting hurdles in their way.
Aug 7th, 2006
Ken
AB said “Also, TPV holders cannot just leave the country and then come back in.”
Thats interesting – so how did this bloke seem to be able to travel around the place?
I’d like the resources to be able to do that? Why was he loceld up in Turkey if he had legitimaet travel documents – which presumabley he had to leave Australia.
“Also, TPV holders cannot just leave the country and then come back in. They have no automatic right of re-entry, and would usually not be allowed back in without Ministerial approval. (although I can’t see any valid reason why they shouldn’t have this right.)”
Blimey – parliamnet must be back. Having travelled all this way to find a safe haven – and not had their status determined (presumably thats what the T stands for) and as they came on a boat (as as TPV) you throw out this line that they shoudl have the right to trvael around at will with automatic re-entry with an undetermined status. While I can understadn the freedom of movement argument that’s so politically naive.
“I can’t see why anyone who is recognised as a refugee should then have life made any more difficult for them”
That I certainly agree with, not only from an economic but also social point of viwe. How it applies to the case in discussion appears however a moot point.
Aug 7th, 2006
Andrew Bartlett
Ken
My point applies to this instance because people who are found to be refugees are prevented from leaving the country and their families are usually prevented from entering. That’s why when TPV holders finally get a permanent visa one of the first things they do is go to try to visit their family.
You are wrong to say TPV’s have an “undetermined statud”. Their status has been determined – they are a refugee, which means they are in need of protection under law. Giving them protection does not mean preventing them from travel.
You are probably right that I am being ‘political naive’ though. If I had any political sense I wouldn’t put any energy into standing up for the rights of refugees – there’s plenty of more votes in doing the opposite (or in ignoring the issue all together). However, people who want ones like that already have plenty to choose from.
Aug 7th, 2006
ken
Andrew
Fair enough – althouhg I did say “presumably” about the “status” attached to the temporary notation on the visa.
The poltical naievety is not so much stadning up for the rights of refugees, contrary to waht others accuse me of, I don’t have a particaulr problem wiht that – it was more my misubnderstadning of the permanency aspect. I couldn’t think anyone coukld justify a position, not even the most stridnet advocaets on this blog, thinking it OK that people of undetermiend status could travel as they wish. If they have permancency and the respurces then travel to their hearts content.
What is the difference between a TPV and a permanent visa?
Back to the story, so that means to travel back to Iran and Tuerkey this chap must have been given permanency, and by default, some form of legitmate Austrlaian documentation to enable him to travel. Which begs the question even more How conme the bloke got locked up in Turkey. Further, given to travel we have already assessed him as a legitmate refugee then how come he got re-assessed agian after 6 months as a “new”? refugee.
Aug 7th, 2006
Donna
I can assure you young Wendy, that your culture is not my culture, and that I would resist with all effort you attempting to impose your culture on my daughter.
Aug 7th, 2006
People Against Live Exports
Donna
All I simply said was providing things are done by scale.
The bible was simply used as an example because there is talk of removing them from hospitals because they offend some people.
I think thats going too far.
So if that offends you that I expressed that concern i can assure you it was not meant to offend anybody.
If you are one of the people who want them removed then please say so and give your reasons .
I do not see how a bible can hurt your daughter.
I think we should preseve our culture and acknowledge where we came from.
Its that simple.
To remove them would be sad and a step in the wrong direction.
Especially for the elderly.
Sure they can bring their own but they are used to them being in the top draw all their lives.
For that matter there could be copies of the koran available as well by request but the bible should stay as it always has in the top draw of hospitals.
Gee do you always jump down peoples throats.
Something tell me had I have replied to you in such an aggressive manner it would not have even been posted.
Aug 8th, 2006
Deborah
Wendy, to be very technical, I would have to say that having well thumbed Bibles and Koran’s cluttering up the drawers of our hospitals would be a source of cross infection.
It would be better that people brought their own and took it away with them when they left – in case they leave much more than they intended for the next patient!
Aug 8th, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
Red you have misunderstood what I wrote and I forgot to explain the so-called travel documents we give people. They are called an Australian Certificate of Identity and all they are is a made up fake passport look alike with any old name DIMA decide on it.
DIMA willingly concede it is not a legal travel document but expect that countries at the other end will allow people to enter “illegally”, knowing very well that in places like Iran the returnees are tortured and tormented. Some have disappeared, some locked up in the notorious Evin prison and some like this man manage to escape again to another country.
Still with no legal ID – so they are arrested and tormented and tortured. It was only that his Australian wife rescued him that he survived or he might well be locked up again.
He only got legal travel documents when the UNHCR virtually demanded he be accepted here as a refugee.
Is that clearer now? It is a truly shocking story of negligence, culpable cruelty and plain wrong assertions as the man was always a refugee.
Aug 9th, 2006
ken
its very hrd not to interpret this saga, as the info slowly drip feeds, but it does seem a little bit of a mish mash of rights v responsbilities v stupidity
Aug 9th, 2006
Deborah
Marilyn, by falsifying people’s identities, DIMA should surely be held accountable – shouldn’t that be an illegal act in itself?
And why should other countries accept a person that DIMA has forcibly removed from Australia and shoved on a plane with false documentation?
DIMA should be held in contempt by the international community (I think we are not highly thought of anyway) and there should be pressure applied e.g. threat of sanctions etc.
I’d love to see a squirming Howard explain that to the public.
Aug 9th, 2006
ken
Despite the inmportance we attach to ourselves Deborah – the “international community” knows didley squat about good old OZ.
I thought this story was about a perosn who travelled voluntarily
Aug 9th, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
Ken what do you mean travelled voluntarily. He was given the choice of a permanent life in Baxter or to go back to danger. Which would you choose when you had already been utterly dehumanised, beaten, tortured and locked up in jail for months on end without trial or charge and your choice was a lifetime of it or go home and have a quick death?
There is nothing voluntary about any of the people who have left, they are forced to.
Deborah you are right – under Australian law people can be sent to prison for people smuggling for 7-14 years.
Making false documents carries a 5 year prison term yet DIMA seem to think they can do it without charge.
Ken they pay bribes at the borders of other countries or in some cases the countries send the people back to us.
Trafficking people for political advantage is a crime – yet DIMA even did it to Vivian Alvarez on the basis that some brain dead twerp in DIMA erroneously decided that she was a Philipino sex slave rather than an Australian citizen as she claimed over and over again.
Aug 9th, 2006
Ken
OK then get the story right. At the begining you said he left austrlai to go and see his sick mother – you never mentioned oine iota of the knwoldege that he was forced to go. Lets get the exact words, remebr these
Eventually he was told that if he went back to Iran he could come back on spouse visa. So he went and his wife went with him before coming back after 6 months. He was tortured for 40 days so he escaped to Turkey where he was locked up and tortured again before he finally got refugee status from the UNHCR.
He came back to Australia once last year but was so mentally ill that he went back to Turkey after a few months. Too many bad memories and too much mental damage done to this truly beautiful human soul.
“Two weeks ago he came home again and I finally met him after knowing his wife and her anguish for all these years.”
I am trying to find the word forced there – what forced each time he travelled.
Then later we get at 31
“Gee he went home because his mother was dying, spent 40 days being tortured in a Turkish prison and finally the UN said he was a refugee all along.
Refugees are allowed to leave the bloody country you know, they are not our prisoners.”
Still trying to find forcved in there dear old M.
So if you want to be taken as a serious commentator and source of knowledge then get the story right. People can ony comment ont he basis of what is written. Anotehr F
Aug 9th, 2006
red
M
i like to read your blogs you do have passion and commitment its to be commended
as you have sead once before i pick up on the small things
point one
Trafficking people for political advantage is a crime – yet DIMA even did it to Vivian Alvarez on the basis that some brain dead twerp in DIMA erroneously decided that she was a Philipino sex slave rather than an Australian citizen as she claimed over and over again.
i went o the trouble of obtaining and reading the ombasmans report. DEMA made a few stuff ups but when you have and use eight names it makes it a bit hard to pick the correct one.
would you like a copy i have it here if you want it.
point two, any one who is trying to get protection will always paint the blackest picture of there past as they can so you realy have to question what is sead to find the truth.
im not picking on you just a few silly comments you make now and then.
Aug 10th, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
Thanks red, but it is proved over and over again that refugees don’t have to lie about their positions in their home countries, usually it is terrible enough.
Lately we have seen over 5,000 Australian’s have to flee from the Lebanon due to Israeli bombing.
We had the situation where passports had to be processed even when the person had a broad Australian accent. Cyprus, Syria and Jordan were accommodating of those refugees, they were not locked up or turned back to be bombed.
However, in one case there was a baby. She had been adopted in Lebanon but was turned away by DIMA because the baby didn’t have a visa.
What an absurdity that a baby who will now grow up in Australia couldn’t come to Australia or leave Lebanon and the Israeli bombing was disallowed by the same government that sent Vivian Alvarez out of the country with no papers or permission. Vivian was an Australian citizen.
Out of the 5,000 Australian’s who had to become refugees the only one held back was a 10 month old baby, so they eventually gave her a tourist visa.
I wonder where she will go touring?
Aug 10th, 2006
Donna
Wendy
In relation to your comments ‘So why cant the red cross or someone teach them some English?’
It’s cannot, not ‘cant’ Wendy. Red Cross begins with capital letters. Maybe you could do some brushing up on your English.
‘Someone’ is teaching them English Wendy. In fact, there are many ’someones’ who contribute their time, voluntarily, teaching ‘them’ English. The many housewives that are being taught ESL do not appear to pose as a security concern.
Aug 10th, 2006
ken
Ouch…
Can’t (or cannot) quite bring yourself to acknowledge your error / mix up M?
Aug 10th, 2006
Donna
That was me Ken, not M.
Yes can’t will do, but not cant.
For those who use cant, it’s wise not to verbalise why ’someone’ can’t (cannot) teach ‘them’ English.
Aug 10th, 2006
Marilyn Shepherd
There is something deranged about the pedantics of some people.
Parvis was a refugee who was locked up in Woomera for three years. He went insane during that time. He was married to an Australian woman and was told “you can get a visa but you have to go home to get one.”
That is coercion. It was force because he didn’t want to put himself back into danger when some of his friends disappeared off the face of the earth after “agreeing” to go home.
He had no travel documents, which is “forced” removal because DIMA were absolutely aware that he would be arrested, tortured and incarcerated again in Evin prison. Which he was.
There was not one thing voluntary about his first forced removal – each other time he has left and come back is only because the UN forced us to give him legal travel documents instead of “removing” him without documents.
Clear? We are talking about the removal of a christian man to the mad mullahs of Iran remember not a British person going home to his nice safe house.
Aug 10th, 2006
Andrew Bartlett
Just to clarify what Marilyn is talking about as I think there is some confusion – the man in question was refused a refugee visa by Australia. He was offered a spouse visa, but had to go offshore to apply (which is the way some spouse visas work – I’ve never been able to understand why)
(I don’t know the case myself, I’m just going from what Marilyn said)
Aug 10th, 2006
ken
Thansk for clearing that up – wonderful how a simple issue can be easiyl explained if its not overladen with a whole lot of emotive blatehr. I agree it seems an innapropriate process – no bdoubt put in place becasue someone took us for a ride in 1963, so its still in place now. Rather than the more fashionable conspiracy theoreies etc in place now, thats actually how bureacraceis work.
Howver, I will accept the pedantic criticim, but people need to be held accountable for waht they publically proclaim – its simply the obverse of the old tell the lie oftne enough and people will evenetually believe it.
Aug 11th, 2006
Deborah
Ken, “its simply the obverse of the old tell the lie oftne enough and people will evenetually believe it.”
Well, it works for John Howard & his gang!
Aug 11th, 2006
ken
Indeed – my point. A good old tactic thast been employed for centuries.
Aug 11th, 2006
Deborah
Ken
“…but people need to be held accountable for waht they publically proclaim”
Hmmm, but those people don’t get held accountable for their lies (Howard & Co.) because people believe them and it reinforces their own prejudices/bias. Saying that Howard is held accountable at the next election is not really tackling him on lies and damned lies, no-one, not even the press, are publicly calling Him on the lies.
Therefore Howard is seen as a man of great character and truth by some, not the pathological liar and racist that he really is.
Maybe the party revolt on asylum seeker offshore processing will be more telling than it first seems – those decent people in his own party are saying that he stinks!
Aug 13th, 2006
People Against Live Exports
Donna
Its good that they allow people to teach them English.
This may really upset you but we run AICOL.
When I am posting I just type Aussie slang.
I cant see any harm in that.
Red Sorry I did not see your post on the other page. its waiting there for you.
You know correct me if I am wrong but didnt Andrew say he was putting a stop to these personal attacks on people?
Somebody posted that these people were refused English coaching.
Anyway Donna what about the idea of putting up tendors for these places to be run by Australians instead of offshore contracts?
Surley thats more important than picking on my slang.
or isnt it?
.
Aug 26th, 2006